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Steve Wershing:
Hey, it’s Steve. We haven’t spoken about this before. And I’m actually a little bit nervous. I’m concerned about talking with you about this because I really, I’m afraid that you might get turned off and not want to keep listening, but I think it’s important that we have this. And on reflection, I think I will talk about this with you, because I think that this conversation can help you have better deeper client relationships and more referrals.

On this episode of Becoming Referable, we speak with David Wood, the founder and president of Play For Real, who coaches executives, and entrepreneurs on high-performance in life and in work. And we talk about tough conversations.

Now, you know working with clients, sometimes those conversations can be tough. And David gives us a path to navigate those conversations, so that it comes out as well as possible for you and for the other person. And we will talk about the four steps to having a tough conversation. We’ll talk about what kinds of conversations you can have using this process. We talk about how you can learn about yourself as well as your client, by having a tough conversation regarding something you or the client is struggling with, and how that can help deepen relationships, and even lead to more introductions and more referrals. It’s a great, really valuable conversation, and I hope you enjoy it.

So, here now is David Wood. David Wood, welcome to the Becoming Referable Podcast. Thanks for joining us.

David Wood:
Thank you, Steven. I feel happy in this moment to be here.

Steve Wershing:
We’re thrilled to have you. And I can’t wait to talk with you about all the stuff that you do. Let’s start with, can you tell us a little bit about how talking with clients is like talking with prison inmates?

Julie Littlechild:
Well, that’s a start, if I ever heard one.

Steve Wershing:
Well, we want to hook listeners early, right?

David Wood:
Yeah. Well, the interesting thing I found after coaching executives and entrepreneurs for a long time, I think it’s been maybe 25 years, and then going into prisons and helping them with their tough conversations, what struck me is not the differences like, “Oh, we have to totally rework all this technology.” But the similarities.

Steve Wershing:
Sure.

David Wood:
You’ve got a prison inmate is going to have someone challenged them or someone angry with them. Their partner might be angry with them because they screwed up and got sent to prison. And now he or she has to raise the kids alone. Well, executives and entrepreneurs have people get angry with them all the time too. Executives and entrepreneurs also they have desires that are unexpressed and they could speak up more. They have tolerances, frustrations, things that people are doing to annoy them. And they would like to be able to speak up more and do it artfully.

In the prison system, I’m just seeing the same patterns. Oh, someone in authority, I need to enroll them in something. So, that’s what I noticed. I don’t actually spot a lot of differences. I spot that we’re human, no matter where we are.

Steve Wershing:
Interesting. So, when I’m trying to imagine financial advisors thinking about their client conversations. And I can see a lot of them saying, “Well, we want our clients to be happy. We don’t want them to be angry at us. We don’t really want to have conversations where we talk to them about what they’re angry, but we want to have pleasant conversations. We want them to be happy all the time.” Are there benefits to thinking about having tough conversations with clients? Or how would you respond to that feeling on the part of the advisors?

David Wood:
Yeah. Well, first let’s go a little broader and let’s think about like for each of our listeners right now, ask our listeners, who are your stakeholders? And I mean, who has an investment in your life? And so the stakeholders, you may have a partner, girlfriend, wife, husband, your kids are stakeholders in your life. Your clients are stakeholders. Your staff, your business partner, if you have one, your friends. These are all the people that you interact with. And yeah, it’d be nice if nothing ever comes up that could be awkward. That’d be cool, but that’s not the way it happens.

We’re humans. And we have things come up. And what I learned as a kid is just don’t express that, sweep it under the carpet. And we’re just not going to really address anything head on that could be awkward.

Well, I’ve spent 25 years recovering from that and learning how to lean into things. And I found that almost invariably, there are exceptions, but almost invariably it helps to go into those awkward issues and speak them.

So, let’s use clients as an example. One of the situations that I find awkward with a client is to talk about raising my fees.

Steve Wershing:
Oh okay, that’s a good one.

David Wood:
Yeah, That’s a good one. Like, “Hey, I want to charge you more money.” Another one that can be awkward is if a client needs a bit of coaching or training on how to interact with me. And what I mean by that is if they’re reaching out too much by email and phone, and they’ve got an expectation that I’m going to do something that I don’t want to do as a provider. So, that could be an awkward conversation like, “Hey, this much emailing is okay, and this much is probably a bit overkill.” What do you guys find as some other situations that can be awkward or tough with a client?

Julie Littlechild:
Well, as you’re talking, I’m also thinking about there’s things that are awkward for me to discuss, like you said, I’m going to raise my fees. I imagine this happens outside our industry as well. But there is, it’s tackling the client’s fears or what they’re doing in their lives. So, it might not be an awkward situation for me. But if I need to talk to a client and say, “Let’s talk about your kids and whether they’re ready to get this inheritance or how we might structure it.” Or there’s a lot of things that clients may not want to address or how they’re going to spend their retirement, or what have you. So, do you also put that in the category of the awkward conversation?

David Wood:
For sure. Normally, when I talk about tough conversations, I’m looking at the person who’s talking to me, like the person that I’m coaching. So, our listeners, I’m mainly looking at where are some areas where you can dive in there and have a conversation where you’re wanting to bring something. But I love that you’re opening it up to a whole new area, which is maybe these are some tough conversations just because maybe they’re awkward for the client to bring up as well. And I just thought of another area, and this came up in my interview with Matt Halloran, and who I know you guys know.

Steve Wershing:
Oh, sure, he’s a great friend of ours.

David Wood:
Yeah. He was saying, he’ll stand in front of a room and say, “How many of you have had clients who’ve cried or felt a strong emotion during a consultation?” And all the hands go up. And then he says, “And how many of you know what to do?”

Julie Littlechild:
Yep.

Steve Wershing:
Right. Are you sure?

David Wood:
Yeah. I just had a beautiful session right before this call with you guys where I’ve got a manager in a company and she just started crying. We were talking about something and I brought up something about her family and she realized something super important, and she started crying. And that can be awkward for a lot of people. And what I did is I just breathed, I gave her space, and then I gave her overt permission and said, “This is a cry friendly space. This is good stuff. Take your time.” And so, we went through it. So, that’s another example of a tough conversation when your clients might come up with some strong emotion.

Steve Wershing:
Sure. Or another one that occurs to me is, if the client is doing something that the advisor knows is going to compromise them down the road, if they’re giving too much to their adult children, because their adult children keep coming back to them for support or habits that… Or it could be something stereotypical like overspending or something like that. People really want to have a certain lifestyle. And the advisor may be trying to get across the point that, “Look, you don’t have the resources to have that kind of lifestyle.” Those kinds of questions coming up.

David Wood:
Yeah. Yeah. This is making me think of a couple of tough conversations. I’ve had one with a client, one with a friend, but I think I’ll be illustrative. I had a client that just talked too much. He would tell stories. I’d ask him a question and he’d say, “Well, let me tell you a story.”

Julie Littlechild:
No can’t do it.

Steve Wershing:
You know you’re setting yourself up for another cup of coffee when that happens.

David Wood:
I know. He would. And he’d tell his story. And he wasn’t being relational at all. And we’ve got 30 minutes to impact his life. And so, I had to have that conversation with him artfully gently. And one thing that he learned out of that is that if he’s going to tell a story, he’s got to sell it and he’s got to create context because I’m coaching people on everything. So I’m like, “Look, if my eyes are kind of glazing over and I’m wondering, where the hell is this going? You might have other people at work that are doing that too.” And he learned out of that conversation. And this is one of the reasons to have a tough conversation is usually you’re going to learn something, and your client might as well.

And he learned, he needs to tell people, “You know what? I’ve got a short story that take about two or three minutes that I think will really illustrate this. And I think you’re going to be glad you heard it. Find a way to tell me why I’m listening to it.

Steve Wershing:
Yeah.

David Wood:
And then the other example I thought of that was very difficult for me, was a friend of mine was doing something that I think he couldn’t see. He was having an issue with, he’d break up with women and then they’d hate him or want to kill him.

Julie Littlechild:
That’s [inaudible 00:11:40] problem.

Steve Wershing:
Yeah.

David Wood:
Yeah. And I thought, there’s something here to learn or I have some feedback. And this was hard for me. But I said, “Look, I want to be a good friend. I want to show up. And I want to say the things that are hard to say. Are you interested in having a conversation to look at what you could be doing and where you can take responsibility?” And he was like, “Thank you. No one’s offered to do that. And I would love to.” So, that was hard for me to say, because I had the sense that he didn’t actually want to hear that. And it turns out, he was willing to.

Steve Wershing:
So, we have a few different scenarios, a few different examples of when you may have to have a tough conversation. Let talk a little bit about how you navigate that. How do you have a tough conversation?

David Wood:
I’m so glad you asked. And the reason I’m glad is because I keep refining it. I’ll probably refine it until I die. And more recently, I’ve got some more clarity and I think I’ve got an even better model, that’s in the downloads.

Julie Littlechild:
Cool.

David Wood:
We’ve got a download that we’ll give away at the end of the session.

Steve Wershing:
Awesome.

David Wood:
So, listeners, you don’t have to take notes if you don’t want to, you can just download this. But I’m going to give you something on this episode that isn’t even in that download yet. It’s hot, fresh off the presses.

Julie Littlechild:
All right. Lay it on us.

Steve Wershing:
So, they do have to take notes, you’re saying?

Julie Littlechild:
Oh, that’s right. That’s right. Yeah. You got me. You probably do want to write this down because I think this is really hot. The first, I’ll talk meta, and then we’ll get right into how to do it. The meta conversation is if you want to have tough conversations and make them work for you and master those conversations, so you’re more attractive as an advisor and as a husband, partner, parent, the first thing is awareness. We don’t even know what tough conversations are. They’re swimming around us, like a fish in the water. You say to the fish, “How’s the water?” The fish might respond, “What water?” It’s like that with tough conversations. How they occurred to us is not as a tough conversation, but as just that’s how people are. Or a problem with someone, “Ah, that client, I just don’t like showing up for them. They talk too much.” Or, “I just don’t like that guy. I don’t like how he treats me.” It could be like that.

Steve Wershing:
Or David, tell me if this works for you, because I hear this from advisors a lot, that your thought might be, they just don’t listen.

David Wood:
Yes, exactly. That’s how it occurs. So, I started talking about tough conversations and people are like, “Yeah, that doesn’t apply to me because I speak out when I need to.” Yeah. We all think that.

So, the first step is to do a truth audit. And I just take a piece of paper and a pen and write down the people in your life that you don’t feel great about. It’s that simple. If you want to go deeper, like who do you resent? What do you feel guilty about? Who annoys you? Who do you really want something from but you haven’t asked it? Write down those names. I’m not saying you have to go and talk to them all. But the first step is awareness. And then draw a line down the page. And on the right side of the page, write down what the issue is, “That person talks too much. That person is late all the time. Drives me bonkers.”

And so, that’s the first step. And then once you’ve got that, you want to get clarity. The reason we don’t want to have a lot of these conversations, is a good one. We don’t have clarity, and so we might mess it up, and we might create a bit of a train wreck. The clarity will make a huge difference.

And then the third step at this meta level is actually go and have the conversation. And the free download that will give away helps you with the second too. It’ll help you get clarity for any conversation. And it will give you the steps to actually take. You can even take the printout with you to talk to the person and say, “I wrote some stuff down because I didn’t want to forget anything.” It can be that simple.

Julie Littlechild:
Do you find David, that the clarity piece, so I assume you’re talking about clarity about what the issue is. Just really thinking that through. I mean, if I got that right first of all, I would imagine that if you are actually open to thinking about that, sometimes you end up realizing that you might be looking through a problem through your own lens that it’s, why does it bother me so much that that person is late? Well, maybe when think about it, I feel disrespected. And why do I feel so worried about being disrespectful? Do you find it takes you into all sorts of different areas when you do that?

David Wood:
Hopefully, it will because there’s such a learning opportunity here. I offered someone a coaching session as a gift. I said, “I want to invest in our relationship.” And he didn’t show up. Okay. I didn’t like that, but I’ve had that before. But then he used my booking link to rebook it and sent me a message saying, “Oh, I’m sorry, that was my mistake. I’ve adjusted our session to next week.” And I had a reaction. And I didn’t know what was going on, except I didn’t like it. I didn’t like him because of it. And what I wanted to do, here’s the temptation, I wanted to just write back and say, “You know what? Next week doesn’t work. Let’s just leave it or I’m not available now.”

I did not want to do another session with him. And because of my training and my commitment, I decided let’s look at this. And I went through the worksheet. And we’ll get into it now.

So, firstly, let me back up a step. You got four steps to a tough conversation. Prepare, this is where you get clarity. Ask permission to have the conversation. Share the issue. And if you have a request, this is the place to do it. And then listen. So, it’s prepare, ask, share, and listen. Those are the four steps.

Now, let’s dive a little bit more into that prepare one. When you download the worksheet, it’ll ask you questions that help you get clear. And one of the questions is, “What’s your hope? What’s your hope out of this conversation? What would be a great outcome?” And that’s not obvious to me. I’ve been doing this for 20 years and it’s still not obvious. I have to do the worksheet and go, “Well, my hope is that I might feel heard and seen. And that this person at least understands the impact that it had. My hope is that they’ll change their behavior and future. And that he’ll show up on time to our calls. My hope is that I’ll feel more connected. My hope is that I’ll have some peace out of this and be able to sleep better because this has been bugging me.” So, it’ll ask you, what’s your hope?

Steve Wershing:
So, David what would you say to an advisor who starts an exercise like this and their response to that is, “I hope they’ll take my advice.”

David Wood:
Well, could you give me an example of what the advice might be? Just so I can figure out for myself.

Steve Wershing:
So, let’s say, the grown kids are deadbeats and they keep getting themselves in trouble, and they keep asking mom for money, and she keeps sending it. And as the advisor, we could see that she’s going to run out of retirement funds before she passes away. And so, we need to tell her, “You got to stop sending money to your kid.”

David Wood:
Yeah. Okay. So, as I do the worksheet, first question is, what’s my hope? My hope is that they’ll understand my advice and be swayed to take the advice, so that they can have more money in their retirement and be really taken care of. I’d write down that as my hope, because that’s something when we get to the next step that I can share with the person. And we’ll find out why that’s super important.

So, in the preparation stage, what’s your hope, it’ll ask you, what’s your fear? What’s your concern? What could go wrong about this conversation? That’s really useful information. On my fear, in my example, my fear is he might think that I am too much. I’m high maintenance. I’m a jerk. And he might bad mouth me in the industry. That’s my fear. Really, really great to become at least know that even if I decide not to have the conversation, this clarity is valuable. You might realize, “Oh, I feel disrespected.” That’s a possibility.

When these tough conversations come up for me, it’s not obvious to me what’s going on. With that guy who adjusted our session to next week, I finally realized I felt disrespected. My time wasn’t being valued. And that was really useful for me to know, because then I can let him know what’s going on.

The worksheet will also ask you, “Do you have a request? What is the issue? What are you feeling? And do you have a request?” Hey, my request is you be on time. Or my request is that you really consider the advice I’m giving you, and maybe even journal what it’d be like, if you do spend this money on your kids, and then you’re left with less, and just feel into that, would that be okay with you? And what if you didn’t spend all that money and you saved it, if you’re a time mint, and then you have it later on, how would that feel? My request is that you really explore that and choose what’s right for you.

So, once you’ve done your prep… Well, I want to stop and just say, any questions about the… Oh, there’s one more question that you’ll be asked. How might this look from their point of view? If you put yourself in their shoes, I imagine they might be really caring about their kids. They might care about their kids more than they care about themselves. That’s really good, if I can be prepared for that. You might have a higher value on your kids being happy now, and you might be willing to not have money in your retirement. I’m open to that possibility, but I want to explore it with you.

Julie Littlechild:
Yeah. No, this is great. I love how it’s about the conversation, but it’s also so introspective at the same time.

David Wood:
Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t know if I realized that when I embarked on the journey of tough conversations, but I’m seeing now, even if you choose not to have the conversation, even if the conversation doesn’t go well, I learned something about myself, “Oh, I don’t like that. I do like this. I want this in my life. I want to ask for it.” Oh this is the feeling that’s happening, where most of us aren’t trained in feeling recognition. I wasn’t. I’m a guy who was raised in a country town in Australia. And I’m still trying to learn, what am I feeling? What’s going on inside?

Julie Littlechild:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Wood:
Yeah.

Steve Wershing:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Wood:
So, let’s suppose you’ve done the prep. That’s step one, right? You’ve got the clarity. You may now choose to have the conversation, or you might not. You might think I could lose the client. That’s one of the risks. And I’m not willing to risk that, so I’m not going to do it. Or you could decide, the upside here is that you feel more connected and I really give more value to my client. I’m going to do it.

So, the next step is to ask. And this is where it can often go off the rails because a lot of people don’t do that step. They just come in, “Hey, John I need to let you know about or need to talk to you about your performance. Here’s what’s going on. And here’s what we need you to improve.” There’s no asking. There’s no setting of the context. And if you come in and tell someone, “Hey, we need to talk.” You tell me that, I assume the worst.

Julie Littlechild:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Steve Wershing:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

David Wood:
I do not assume positive intent. And I didn’t even know that about me or humans until I’d gotten deeper into this work. And I’m like, I just don’t assume positive intent. I don’t assume the best. My ego is trying to protect me.

So, I’ll give you a simple formula for the ask, which can make all of your tough conversations so much easier. “So and so there’s something I haven’t been saying because,” insert your fear, “But I’ve decided I’d like to talk to you about it because,” insert your hope. Really simple formula.

So, in the example you guys gave me, you guys have created, “Hey, John, I want to talk to you about your current spending. There’s something I haven’t been…” Sorry, let me go back. “John, there’s something I haven’t been saying. And I think it’s because I want you to like me. I want the relationship to continue. And I’m worried that you might be upset about my advice. I’ve decided I’d like to talk to you about it because I really care about your financial future. And I think this advice could really make a difference. And so, do you have 10 minutes now to talk about it?”

Steve Wershing:
I really liked that construction.

Julie Littlechild:
Yeah. I want to talk about it right now after you said that.

David Wood:
Yeah.

Steve Wershing:
Because I think a tendency that advisors may have sometimes is that they feel like they know what the right thing to do is, and they just want to tell the client. But this positions it so that you’re establishing a more personal connection with the client and you’re trying to explain to them, how you care for them and what you hope for them as a way of setting up the conversation. So, I really like that part.

David Wood:
Yeah. And I just thought of, when I think about people with their clients, a lot of clients on tough conversations for me. So, I wouldn’t even use that format. I just launch in. Or I’d say, “Hey, I’ve got something that might be useful. Do you want to hear it?” I just do that. But it’s when it’s tough for me that and it may be tough for them that I want to go back to basics, fill in the worksheet.

I had a client I worked with for a year and I wanted to raise the fee. And it took me months to get around to it. And I finally had to look at, “What am I afraid of?” And I was afraid that maybe he wasn’t getting as much value as I’d hoped. And he might just use that as an opportunity to say, “I think I just want to stop. Take a break now. I think I’m good.” I didn’t want that to happen.

So, finally, using this format, it would go something like, “Hey, Bill, there’s something I haven’t been saying, I haven’t been bringing up. And I think the reason I’m avoiding it is because I love working with you. And I’m concerned it might prompt you to go, “Oh no, I want to stop.” And I’m really enjoying working with you and I want to keep going. So, I haven’t been bringing it up, but I’ve decided I do want to speak about it because I want to feel more empowered working with you. And I think this is going to have me feel even more enthusiastic about it. So, do you have five minutes now for me to tell you what it is? And then, almost everyone is going to say yes, if you present it in that way. So, that would be step two.

We’ve done the prepare. We’ve done the ask. And you know what? If they say, “Now is not a good time.” How cool that you asked and didn’t just launch into it when they’re fully busy and they can’t even address it, or they’re overwhelmed with something else and whatever. You might negotiate it, “All right. We’ll talk this afternoon at three o’clock.”

And then step three, you share the issue, “Hey, I’ve been wanting to raise the fees. I feel like it’s a bit low in the marketplace. It’s been fine for a year, because I’ve just really loved working with you. Now, I want to adjust it and bring it into line.” Or, “Hey, I’m concerned about you spending so much money on your kids because while that might feel good in the short term, there may come a rainy day later on when you’re like, “Wait, what happened to all my money?” Right? You share the issue.

And if you have a request, which is a leadership move, so this is all leadership moves, to have to bring up the conversation. But if you have a request, someone asked me when I was having a tough conversation with my aunt, I just felt hurt by something that she’d done. And someone asked me, “What’s your request?” I’m like, “Damn, what can I ask for? I’m just upset.” And really my request was go back in time and don’t do that thing you did. I was just not very practical. So, I had to think, “What can I ask for?” And it was a real growth moment for me. And I realized, I guess my request is just that she hear me out and understand the impact. I want to feel gotten.

So, the request is a leadership move and it’s a bonus move. My request is that you be on time, even two minutes early. My request is if you’re enjoying the coaching that you pay the new rate. My request is that you really sit with my advice and decide if you have a higher value on spending on your kids now, versus having that financial safety net later on in life. Or, as a financial advisor, I’d be very reluctant if I try and imagine myself being an advisor to say, “My request is you take my advice.” I don’t want that kind of responsibility. As a coach, I wouldn’t do it. My request is just that you fully listen and you really address it. And then I want you to make the decision.

Julie Littlechild:
Hi, it’s Julie here. And I hope you’re enjoying the show. I just wanted to pause and share some news about an upcoming event. At Absolute Engagement, we help advisors use direct input from clients to evolve the client experience and increase referrals. And on March 4th, we’re hosting a webinar called The Evolution of The Client Experience. I’ll draw on our ongoing investor and advisor research to examine exactly how the last 12 months have forever changed the client experience that you need to deliver. There’s a link below to register in the show notes, or you can email support at absoluteengagement.com with the word register. And let us do that for you. With that, let’s get back to the show.

Steve Wershing:
Well, you know David Wood, our program is about getting more referrals and getting word out about what you do. And sometimes what I hear from advisors is that they have a real discomfort talking about the value of what they do, that for them talking about the good things they do for clients is actually a bit uncomfortable because they feel it’s braggadocious, or because they’re uncomfortable promoting themselves or those kinds of things. Would you consider that a tough conversation and how might you approach it?

David Wood:
Yeah. Where my mind went, I think it’s probably not a fit for this conversation because you don’t generally believe in asking for referrals, right?

Steve Wershing:
That’s right.

David Wood:
Do you promote the idea of letting people know that you enjoy referrals?

Steve Wershing:
Yeah. Yes. So, we’re believers that you should talk about referrals and talk about how important they are. What we want to steer people clear of is the question, who do you know who can use my services?

David Wood:
Yeah, for sure. That’s never really worked for me.

Julie Littlechild:
Mostly because it didn’t either.

David Wood:
Yeah. So, what would be a tough conversation for me would be to call someone and let them know that I love referrals and appreciate it. And I’d just like to be thought of in that way. That could be a tough conversation because I had to maybe talk about the value of what I do. And I would definitely apply this model. In fact, I might. I’m just seeing now an opening for me. I’m sure there are a bunch of people that I haven’t been having this conversation with. And now I can use this model to give myself some freedom and I could say, “Hey, I noticed there’s something I haven’t been saying. And the reason is I’m worried you might feel pressured or put on the spot, or awkward. And that’s not my intention. And I’ve decided I want to actually bring it up because I am great at what I do. And I think this might lead to more people getting what they want.” I mean, that sounds a bit, I’d probably have to workshop that.

Steve Wershing:
Yeah. But I think we get the idea. It’s an interesting approach. It’s an interesting way to deal with them.

David Wood:
Yeah. Yeah. Let me try that again. I want to bring it up because you might sometimes run into someone who would be grateful for an introduction to me. And I don’t want to just stay silent and let that opportunity go. So, I wanted to bring it up and speak it up.

One of the things I realized it’d be a benefit to me, and this is the value of doing the worksheet is just that I speak up. That in and of itself when I speak up, and I just have dignity believing in myself, that’s a win. So, that be what I share. I want to speak up because I feel good each time I do. It’s like, I’m more expressed. And we might get some happy people out of it.

So, I’ve workshopped that bit, but I totally think that’s a great way to go. If you find I’m a big believer in naming what’s happening and naming the thing. So, if you find that you’re hesitating to do something, like talk up your value, great. Let’s name it. I notice I’m holding back in saying this because I’m shy. I believe in this culture, you’re not really supposed to ignite yourself. It might be considered bragging. But I want to, because I’m doing some great work and I want to proclaim it to the world. That would work for me.

Julie Littlechild:
Interesting. So, as you’ve been talking, my mind was going in another related direction as well, that this conversation that we’re having, I think is incredibly helpful for advisors, for all of us. I’ll talk to my son tonight, just making notes.

Steve Wershing:
And stop spending so much money on him.

Julie Littlechild:
Yes, I heard.

David Wood:
I love that you said that because I want this to be real. There’s something about theory that can be useful, but when it’s like, “Oh, this is the person I needed to speak to.”

Julie Littlechild:
Oh for sure.

David Wood:
And that makes everything worthwhile.

Julie Littlechild:
And so, I do think for advisors in their personal lives, in their businesses, this is an incredibly powerful, just because as I’m hearing you articulate it, I think, Oh yeah, that’s so comfortable that that would work. The other piece of it is that advisors, I believe, need to help their clients have conversations that are difficult with one another. And the idea of perhaps offering some of what you do or directing them to a worksheet, so that a couple can go home and have a difficult conversation about money could be an incredible way to add value. And in my mind, that’s connected to referrals in a very different way. So, I know that’s not what we were talking about, but I think it could work really well.

David Wood:
Well, I want to serve your listeners. So, I imagine that I’m a wealth advisor, financial advisor, and my clients need some support in having those difficult conversations, then yeah. I mean, you’re all welcome to give away as far and wide as you want. The download, you can give it to your clients, so that they can each do the worksheets on their own, and then come to the conversation. And something we haven’t talked, well, maybe this’ll flow into step four.

Step four is listen. And when I first came up with this process, I’m a little embarrassed to admit that this wasn’t part of it because I’m very independent. And what was happening is I wanted to control the outcome. So, I’m like, “All right, I’m going to work all this out. I’m going to share it all. And then I’m going to get a yes to my request.”

But the fourth step is almost everything. The fourth step is, listen, ask the person. Well, first you might start with, “Thanks for hearing me out. And now I want to know, how does this land for you? How is it for you to hear this? Do you feel defensive? Do you feel inspired? Do you feel something in between?” Find out their world and how this lands, and listen. And you might even ask, “Do you have a better idea than what I’ve come up with?” This is what I’m thinking, if you pay this amount, then I think that it better be the right amount. And we can have a really great working relationship going forward. If you stop spending on your kids and you save for your retirement, I think that’s going to be a win. But what do you think? And this is where you collaborate and you work it out together.

Julie Littlechild:
Yeah. Right. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. I think this is just such a great conversation to have for advisors, whose value I think is often oftentimes having difficult conversations, right? Whether it’s about themselves or whether it’s about the client, that’s what guidance looks like. Right? When you’re willing to have those conversations. So, I think advisors will benefit greatly.

David Wood:
Yeah. I’m glad you just reminded me, because I think that’s really the crux of this whole conversation now is like, from my point of view, I want people to be great human beings and to have deeper connection in all areas of their life. Specifically, when it comes to clients, I do believe that if you’re willing to go there and talk about the things that other advisors might not be willing to say, even when it’s hard, and particularly when it might lose you the client, then I think that’s what you have a real opportunity to polarize. Either they will leave, which could be what’s appropriate, or they become a raving fan. And they’re like, “Wow. My advisor will say the hard things. My advisor won’t sugarcoat it for me. My advisor will tell me exactly what I need to know, so you should call him or her. I totally recommend them.”

Steve Wershing:
Well, I think David, that’s a great place to stop for now. We’re a bit over time. I’d love to keep talking about this. I think like Juliette’s, it’s such a valuable conversation for advisors and I would encourage all of our listeners to look into this further because I think it really is valuable. If they wanted to do that with you, you have a download and a couple of things we’ll put in the show notes. But if people want to find out more David, where can they look to find you?

David Wood:
Thank you. They can go to playforreal.life. We’re playing a game, but we’re playing as if it matters. So, playforreal.life. And three invitations I have at that link. You can download the four-step tough conversations blueprint. You can subscribe to my podcast. I’d love to have you join me as well as listening to the amazing Steven and Julie. My podcast is Tough Conversations With David Wood. And you can subscribe with that same link.

And then the other thing is, if something here resonated with you and you’re interested in not just your business being better, but also your life being better, because I don’t work with one or the other, and see if you qualify for a discovery session on my website. Click on the big request to session button. And I’d love to hear from you. And if you qualify, I don’t charge for those sessions, because it’s how I find the right people to work with long-term. And all of that is at playforreal.life.

Julie Littlechild:
Wonderful. Thank you.

Steve Wershing:
Well, David, that’s great. Yeah. Well, David, thank you so much for joining us on Becoming Referable. I think this has been a really valuable conversation.

David Wood:
My pleasure. Thank you, Steven and Julie.

Julie Littlechild:
Hi, it’s Julie, again. It was great to have you with us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It really does help. You can get all the links, show notes and other tidbits from these episodes at becomingreferable.com. You can also get our free report, three referral myths that limit your growth, and connect with our blogs and other resources. Thanks so much for joining us.