Participants:
Steve Wershing
Julie Littlechild
Dave Coffaro
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Welcome to Becoming Referable, the podcast that shows you how to become the kind of advisor people can’t stop talking about. I’m Steve Wershing. Dave Coffaro says you cannot assume you have relevance with clients. He says you have to earn that relevance every day. Coffaro serves as principal of Strategic Advisory Consulting Group, and co-founder of Atticus, a FinTech firm providing do it yourself tools for fiduciary based activities. He’s author of Leading from Zero: Seven Essential Elements of Earning Relevance. In Dave’s view, earning and sustaining relevance with employees and customers is the primary responsibility of leaders. Similar to the concept of zero based budgeting, leading from zero asserts every organization starts its day from a base of zero, zero customers, zero employees, zero revenue. Organizations must earn relevance with customers, employees, and stakeholders every day. Dave’s broad financial services experience includes leadership positions in commercial banking and wealth management.
He was founding chair of the UC Berkeley Extension Wealth Management Program, served on the American Bankers Association Professional Development Council, and on the Trust Management Association. In our conversation we discuss what leading from zero means. We explore Cafarro’s assertion that there is no such thing as a status quo. We investigate what comprises relevance for a financial advisor, and what it means to go to any length to nurture the relationship with the client. We talk about using resource development as a differentiator, and we explore his seven elements of earning relevance. And listen through to the end where Dave illustrates his ideas using The Rolling Stones as an example of a business that has continually re-earned relevance. There are a lot of interesting insights in this conversation worth contemplating. Here now is our conversation with Dave Cafarro. Dave Cafarro, welcome to the Becoming Referable Podcast. Thanks for joining us.
I’m thrilled to be here with both of you. Thank you so much.
So in your book, Leading from Zero, you talk about the outbreak of COVID-19 as a zero moment. What do you mean by that, and why is it significant?
So Leading from Zero is a mindset really, and it says that every day businesses need to earn and re-earn, and sustain relevance with their stakeholders. So with their clients, with their employees, with their partners, in order to succeed. And by relevance I’m talking about pertinence, importance and meaningfulness of a business to its stakeholders. So the premises of the book is that we can’t simply assume that our business, our products, our services, are going to automatically remain relevant to our clients and to our stakeholders. In fact, we can’t even assume that our clients will remain our clients. They’ve got a lot of choices, and we’ve got to continually re-earn that relevance, that meaningfulness with them. So early last year at the beginning of the COVID when the economy and a lot of businesses really paused, it was a zero moment. Everything overnight changed and think of clients’ needs, how they evolved, how they changed very quickly.
Preferences followed pretty quickly after that, but the systemic shock of COVID, it forced the zero moment where every organization, for-profit, nonprofit, government agencies, had to question and say, how do we become meaningful? Now they may not have used those words, but how do we earn and re-earn relevance in this new world order? So to regain relevance under those conditions, a lot of leaders took a strategic approach to harvesting new ideas, and better positioning their businesses for this uncertain future. So COVID initiated this zero moment, but part of what I challenge readers too in the book is imagining if you proactively took this perspective, this mindset, and what would leading from zero look like to you? If you started every day assuming no clients, no revenue, if you’re a leader, no employees, and saying, what would I have to do to earn and re-earn relevance with my audience?
And when you talk about relevance in particular, that means something to me, what does it mean to you?
It’s really getting at that idea of pertinence, of importance of meaningfulness in the life of our clients, of our customers. And it changes from time to time, right? It’s not static. It’s something that two years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, may have had one meaning, and today it’s evolved, and tomorrow it will be different. So this whole idea of needing to re-earn and sustain it is one that says the business environment’s dynamic, it’s always in motion. It’s that perpetual emotion concept. So we need to be comfortable in the fact that it’s always evolving.
So many advisors might think, well, we have our clients’ life savings, and we wrote their financial plan, and we talk about that plan. So, of course, I’m going to remain relevant to my clients because I’m the one who knows all their plans and I’m the one who has all their money. What would you say in response to that?
So I think it helps to start with acknowledgement of the nature of business, and that it is dynamic, that it’s in perpetual motion, and think about it, we don’t always feel the motion. Sometimes we get lulled into saying, yeah, things are stable, but the fact of the matter is things are always moving. It’s like living on planet earth, right? At the equator, the planet is spinning at a thousand miles an hour, but we don’t feel it, it’s just normal. When an extraordinary event comes up, like COVID, we feel that acceleration because things happen all around us, and so we can see that things are happening, but there’s never a time in the business environment where things are standing still. So while we can say, yeah, I still have the client’s money, so I must be relevant to them, that’s really a risky mindset. And the A cats take it away.
And so we always have the opportunity to find new ways of earning relevance, and that’s exciting. It’s fun to challenge ourselves, to be creative and look for ways of creating greater relevance in the financial lives of our clients. And ultimately that helps lead us to more introductions.
I think it’s fair to say that some of the core elements of what advisors are doing is relatively static, can we say, but I think that’s maybe what you’re thinking of, Steve, that we’re a cycle. I still do these particular things, but the reality is that the needs, and feelings, and concerns, and challenges of clients are changing. Right? And that seems to me where the big opportunity is, to change the mindset. Would you agree with that?
Yeah. I totally agree with that, and I think it’s so important, Julie, because think about it, clients’ financial lives, even when we’re not in a pandemic, are always changing. People get married, they have children, children grow up, they buy companies, they sell companies, people get divorced and start new families, or they start new companies, and people pass away. So that family dynamic is always in motion, which means that relevance to a client is temporary, it’s fleeting. And so the more we can get comfortable with the fact that what was meaningful to our client yesterday may not be tomorrow as their life situation changes. COVID was a great illustrator of that because everybody’s world changed all at once, but in each individual family, there’s always something going on. So that idea of saying, I want to keep checking in with the client and say, where are they today? What’s meaningful to them today? And what’s changed since we did the plan, right? How do I continue to re-earn that? Because if I make an assumption, I could be very wrong and I could be going down one path and they’re going a completely different path.
One of the more provocative things you say in the book is, it’s getting at what you’re talking about here, and what you were talking about in terms of people at the equator moving a thousand miles an hour, that there is no status quo, there’s no such thing as a status quo. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?
Well, and it’s easy for all of us to get lulled into saying, now that things feel normal, but it’s a false perception. Normal is dynamic movement, perpetual motion. And I think the more we can get comfortable in the uncomfortable, whether we’re an advisor, whether we’re leading advisors, the better off we are, because think about it, back in the 2008 financial crisis I remember hearing people say, once things get back to normal, and then that changed too, when we get to the new normal. Well, the fact is that the new normal is always new. What’s normal today may be different on Monday. And so it’s just a matter of reframing that perspective to say, normal is this ongoing evolution of normal, and getting comfortable with that.
And so you talked about leading from zero, and what does that mean in practical terms? So we’ve talked about the mindset. How do I show up and do that every day?
So, there’s, I mention in the book, this ad that I loved, it’s an oldie, but goodie, but I found it online and it’s from an airline, and their motto was, we have to earn our wings every day. And the ideal was every day they start up, they don’t have any passengers, they don’t have any luggage, any packages that they’re going to carry, or anything like that. And what they do during that day will depend if they have customers tomorrow, passengers tomorrow. So the way we can practice this mindset is to just assume we start each day with a blank slate, zero, and we’ve got to earn that relevance. So if you’re leading the organization with your team members, and if you’re an individual contributor, you’re an advisor working with those clients. When you start from that perspective, when you don’t take anything for granted, it helps change your perspective on the way you engage with clients.
And one of the things that I hear from advisors, and I certainly experienced this as a relationship manager, is sometimes we’re embarrassed to ask questions that we think we should have asked a long time ago. I don’t know if either of you have ever experienced that, where they’re saying, gosh, I’ve never asked her about her philanthropic interests, but I know I should have. It’s really important that we overcome that inertia and potentially embarrassment of being, well, gosh, you should’ve asked me that a long time ago, it’s better to ask the questions because the worst way to find out about somebody’s philanthropic interests for instance, is when they say, my new advisor, that was the first thing she asked me about. So by never taking anything for granted, and being comfortable with feeling somewhat uncomfortable, and asking questions that maybe you thought you should have known, it puts you in a much better position to earn and re-establish that relevance and to sustain it.
I also have to imagine it increases your level of gratitude in the day as well. Just this idea that we’re starting and growing all the time, because we forget about that sometimes.
It’s so easy to forget, right? I will claim to have fallen into that camp many times, but look at companies, it can be in this industry, but it can be any company that forgot that, forgot to be grateful for the opportunity to serve their clients, their customers, and they end up in the history books as a has been, we don’t want that to happen to anybody.
Yeah. Well, yeah. And you have the interesting follow-up to that slogan that you were talking about, that whole thing didn’t work out that well for Eastern Air Lines.
Well, they didn’t follow their own philosophy. I think if they would’ve, they could have ended up like Southwest, right? But they failed to earn their wings. And as a result they had a lot of very unhappy customers, passengers. They were sued quite often by their unions, by their employees. They failed to recognize how important it is to re-earn their wings.
And so when you talk about relevance, are there particular strategies that you think are important for advisors to be thinking about?
Yeah. So the first thing is to recognize that it is point in time, it does have a shelf life to it. And so relevance to a specific client is what’s relevant to them. Every client is different, but don’t assume that you know what’s most meaningful in their financial life, because part of the way that we earn the right to be referable is by knowing what matters to that individual client and not assuming that we know. So investment performance, as an example, we just assume that’s always important to everyone. Well, yes it is, but there are some people that maybe that’s not the number one thing. Maybe what’s more important to them is that they want to help their kids to accomplish certain things financially, or if you’ve ever worked with a family with a special needs child, the group that I used to run had a dedicated special needs team, investment performance is not the number one thing, it’s quality of life. So being able to understand what is the most meaningful to an individual client is part of the way you can put it all into practice.
Hi, it is Julie here. I just wanted to jump in and let you know about a resource that I thought you might find interesting. We’ve long believed that one of the best ways to drive more referrals is to bridge the referral gap. And that’s the gap between the referrals your clients are making and those that you’re actually meeting. The opportunity is significant. And I’ve more than once said that advisors are sitting on a mountain of untapped referral potential. So if you’ve ever wondered about what that means for your business, we’ve created a free tool that you might find helpful. You can use our referral potential calculator by going to referralcalculator.com. Simply enter four numbers for your business and we’ll generate a personalized report just for you. It’s as easy as that.
Now, one of the things that you say in the book is the importance of being willing to go to any lengths to nurture the relationship. And I wanted to dig into that, because I have a concern about it, that I think there’s a difference between a different and more, and more has a ceiling on it that, a lot of people will say, well, you need to consistently exceed expectations. Well, if you exceed expectations three times, that becomes the new expectation. So, it’s a self-limiting game, but can you fill us in a little bit more about what you mean about making it a priority to go to any lengths to nurture the relationship?
Well, what I’m really speaking to is understanding what drives the relationship, right? Getting at what the drivers are for each client. What’s important to them? And then being able to speak to that. What goes along with that though, that has to be taken in context of what’s your own vision for your practice? What is it that you want to deliver, your personal value proposition? And I translate that to the vision. And when you’re clear on that, that lets you know what’s within and what’s out of bounds, right? For doing everything. So let’s take an example, a client with a dog, you don’t want to be the dog walker, that’s not within your vision, I would assume. Now, perhaps some people in their practice, that’s the thing, but generally speaking there are other things that are more within your core value proposition.
So being clear with that, but then making sure that you’re aligning that value proposition with the clients, and you know what? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying here’s a client that’s outside of my parameters. It’s not the right client for me. It’s much better to say that and to recognize that than to overinvest in a relationship that is just not going to be a productive one for them, or for you.
And I think you talk about seven elements of relevance. Can you take us through those? And are there some that you think are particularly important?
Well, I think they’re all important.
Well, I guess you wouldn’t have written about it if you thought any of them should be thrown out.
Right. Exactly.
It started out at nine, I ended up with 7.
Yeah that’s right.
So the idea is that these seven work together, and that if you’re putting your attention into each of these, they contribute to moving your team, your organization towards earning and sustaining relevance, but it starts with leading by cause. And here I’m talking about cause and effect. What’s the cause that you’re working toward, think about it in terms of bottom line. Most leaders that I work with are clear on a bottom line of their business, but it’s not always the right bottom line. Sometimes they’re looking at the wrong thing. So if you think of the most common things that we measure, we measure sales, we measure revenue, we measure profit, but those are really effects, they’re not causes, they tell us something happened. There’s something that happens, that root cause is always about a client. It’s always about a relationship that creates sales and creates revenue.
So part of what I get at in the idea of leading by cause is draw a distinction between the metrics that matter, which in this case is what is your client approach look like? What’s the value proposition to the client? What’s the client experience that you and your firm describe, and how do you consistently deliver that, that kind of thing. So, that’s what leading by cause is. The next one, and we touched on this with some of the questions that you asked earlier about normal and status quo, but the chapter is called Unceasing Redefinition of Normal. And the basic premise there is that normal is always evolving. So being comfortable with that continuous evolution. Then what follows on that is something that I call adaptive disruption. That means where you’re seeing clues and cues around you, that things are changing, you say, okay, I don’t want to wait and be a follower on this, I want to adapt preemptively. I want to know what’s going on and how we’re going to position our firms so we can succeed as the environment changes.
Process mindset is another one. And the idea there is that every activity, whether you’ve defined it that way, or not, is part of a larger process, and being mindful about it, the more clear you are, the better off the organization is. Seeing your organization as others do. That’s dealing with objectivity, and it’s so hard for us as humans to be objective, as individuals, and certainly as a collective group in a company, winning hearts and minds, and how important that is. And the last one is sustainability. How do we sustain this philosophy so that we’re always earning, re-earning, sustaining relevance with clients.
And just picking up on, you mentioned seeing your organization as others do, not easy, right? We all have our own filters. How do you recommend people do that?
That is a challenge, right? As individuals think about it, we have a hard time if we get 360 feedback, and it surprises us in about a hundred percent of the time, if you’ve ever had 360 feedback, you’re surprised. I didn’t know they thought… Who said that. Right?
They’re so wrong.
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
They really understood me.
Yeah.
It’s hard when it’s your spouse, but that’s not the point, but it’s hard for us to be objective. And so in a company, in a firm, it’s also hard. There’s a tendency to distance ourselves and say, well, that person’s wrong, or that trend is wrong. There’s the classic story of the Harvard graduating class, right? The Law School. And as they’re getting ready to throw their caps up, because they’re out of school, the professor says, so I just want to see by a show of hands, how many of you were above average in your graduating class? A hundred percent of the hands go up, right?
The fact is that organizational self-awareness is challenging. And so we’ve got to find ways to see how we show up to others. How do we look to our clients? How do we look to our prospects, our centers of influence? What do they think about us? And is it what we want them to think about us? And this applies all different phases of working with clients. I have some hacks that I talk about on how to step past the human nature tendencies, but one of the things that I experienced, so I managed a large investment management and trust division for a bank. We acquired another bank and as we were integrating the two groups, one of the things that stood out to me was the attrition rate of their clients. And it was just, good grief, look at how fast clients are leaving.
And so I asked the managers in this newly acquired team, what was going on? They said, well, our fees are too high, and it’s investment performance. Okay. I wanted to start talking to the clients who left and understand. And I talked to a dozen, then I talked to a dozen more, and then I talked to a dozen more. And I started saying, hold on a second, I didn’t hear a single person say it’s because your fees are too high, or because of investment performance. It almost always came down to, I haven’t heard from anyone, nobody’s called me, when I call the person I want to talk to isn’t available, those kinds of things. So I don’t think people were intentionally trying to spin it. What I think is they were too close and they couldn’t see it.
So what we did, I made an assumption that managers in a region calling on clients in their region who had left probably wasn’t the most objective way to get information. So we flipped it. I had managers call on departed clients from other regions. And this fascinating thing happened. They got great feedback, but they started saying, if that’s what clients in that person’s region are saying, it may be what clients in my region are saying. And they worked amongst themselves and they were able to step past this natural human barrier of defensiveness, of trying to find ways to defend and justify and all that kind of thing. So there are ways that you can overcome that lack of objectivity that we have as human beings, but you’ve got to do it very mindfully.
Interesting. And one of the other things that you were mentioning there in your principles is having a process mindset. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Yeah. Practicing a process mindset is, really it’s one key element of earning and sustaining relevance. And the connection is between effectiveness and efficiency. So doing the things right, and doing the right things. Making sure that you’re ultimately being as effective and efficient as you can be. And that benefits clients, right? So there are three principles under this header of the process mindset. The first one is every activity is part of a larger process. And then every process has to align with the purpose, and activity process connectivity is stronger when it’s intentionally designed. So think of it in context of a firm. And let’s just talk about your client experience. Now, there are some firms who say, well, we do a great job in serving our clients, and you say, okay, so let’s talk through step-by-step, what is that?
Well, she does it this way. He does it that way. Somebody else does it another way. So that’s a bunch of activities, but it’s not a really clearly aligned process, right? It’s just a bunch of steps that people are doing. Let’s use an example though, that’s outside of our industry, let’s talk about Air Travel. And I think it’s easy to see it there. So there’s this overarching process that’s a series of sub-processes, a series of activities that are designed to the purpose of getting people safely from point A to point B, right? So the flight is the larger process, but underneath that you’ve got things like heavy maintenance, light maintenance, cleaning the cabin, cleaning the cockpit, filling it up with fuel. And so the purpose though is always, how do we get people safely from point A to point B. There’s a great illustration of when processes don’t align, and it’s an Air Canada flight that took place in 1983.
So the plane was a brand new Boeing 767, beautiful new plane. It was on one of its earliest flights and it was going from Montreal to Edmonton. So as it’s getting ready to leave Montreal, the flight crew is out there and they’re checking in, they’re saying, Hey, we noticed that the gas gauges aren’t working, the fuel tank, we can’t tell how much fuel there is. Okay. Brand new airplane. There’s a backup. The backup is you go out and you do what’s called dipping the tanks. And it’s like in a car, the dipstick. So they take these big long poles and they stick them in the tank and said, okay, that’s how much fuel we have. And because they hadn’t been trained on that process, they triple checked three times and they measured it, they wrote down what they thought they had. Had they been properly trained in this process they would have recognized that the Boeing 767 uses all metric measurements, but they didn’t get the right training. They assumed that. It was actually US measurements.
So as a result they overstated the fuel by double, right? In your car, not a big deal, in a Boeing 767, it’s a really big deal, and as a result they ran out of gas at 41,000 feet over Winnipeg. So failing to connect the essentiality of these processes, and seeing how important this training process was. So people understood exactly what they need to do on this particular aircraft, could have turned out to be a disaster. Fortunately, the pilot had been trained as a glider pilot, not on a hard Newton 32 ton airplane, but he had been trained as a glider pilot, which helped him. The co-pilot was in the Royal Canadian Air Force, and he knew of this old abandoned airstrip that was long enough to land a 767. The point here is if we recognize that every process is part of a larger process, we can see how important it is to connect them to what the ultimate experience we want to create is, in this business, it’s a client experience, right?
So it’s not quite as dramatic in the investment business as flying airplanes, but the point is still the more mindful we are about designing processes that help align toward that ultimate goal, the more effective we can be.
Now, one thing that strikes me, and I’m just going back a little bit, but as you talked about showing up with this mindset, essentially questioning everything to some extent every day, that as a leader, that has to be a challenge, trying to get a team to question everything when frankly they’re thinking, I think we’re doing okay here. How do you recommend a leader instill this in a team without scaring them?
Julie, I’m so glad you asked that. And so there’s a section of the book that’s on sustainability, because it does take a lot. It means you’ve got to fight the human tendency to just assume. Things are going fine, we don’t need to double check anything. We can’t do that. We have to continually recognize the world is always changing, our organization is always changing, and whether it’s moving quickly enough that we can see it, or not, we have to be particularly attuned to changes with our clients, changes with the marketplace, changes in our firm, so that we’re always adapting, whether it’s that intentional disruption that we touched on earlier, or whether it’s redesigning our operating models, things like that, the leader holds that responsibility to recognize that for us normal is we’re always evolving. We’re always finding newer, better ways to be even more effective, more efficient, more successful at serving our clients.
Now it seems that constant redefinition of normal, and having a process mindset could be in tension with each other. How do you reconcile having a consistent process with always redefining what you’re doing?
Yeah. Well, that’s an important question too, Steve, because think about it, right? We’re saying we get stability through having clearly defined processes, but the other side of that is those processes are always going to evolve. So think about when a firm introduces a new technology and it changes the way they do things, maybe the way they open accounts, or they do background checks, compliance things. And so we’ve got to be open to the fact that as the world turns at a thousand miles an hour, we’re going to have to adapt our processes, and we’ve got to be comfortable in that discomfort, that ongoing change, that’s what creates success. And when you look at firms that have great longevity, they’ve done that, right? The idea of continually reinventing themselves. And it’s true for us as individuals, for advisors.
Well, and so that brings up a, talking about doing it over the long term brings up a great example that you point to, which is The Rolling Stones. And looking at them as a business, as opposed to as a band, and how they’ve continually re-earned relevance. Tell us a little bit about that example.
One of the reasons I wanted to use it is, first of all, make no mistake, The Rolling Stones are a business, and they’ve been a successful one for over six decades. But think about their business model, their customers have changed pretty dramatically. They’re probably on their fourth generation, or maybe fifth generation of customers. The mechanisms that they use for producing music have changed pretty dramatically. Right? Now it’s digital. You don’t have to be in the same place, let alone in the same country to record, but what people want, what the customers want, how they want it, when they want it? Has all evolved pretty dramatically.
Think about when they started in the business in the early sixties, and the way that a band made money, their revenue model was they took an album, or a record of 45, and took it to a radio station, and they got the disc jockey to put it in the regular rotation and play it a couple of times an hour. And people would go out and buy the record, and that generated revenue, and then the band would go on tour to support the record. And that was their economic model. That model doesn’t work at all today. Today, the name of the game is to get people to stream your content, and most of the streaming services pay between 0.003 and 0.005 cents per full play. You don’t get credit if somebody just listens for a couple seconds, it’s got to be at least 30 seconds or longer. So the economic model has shifted to where the goal is, you give away the music because to make $3,000 on a million streaming streams for your song isn’t very viable. You get people to go to concerts and then you sell a lot of stuff.
The reason I say that The Rolling Stones are a great example, they’ve continually gone through adaptive disruption of their operating model. They’ve refined it as styles have changed, as media have changed, as mechanisms for selling their music has changed, and they’ve done pretty well. Last year, even in COVID, they had a number one hit single. They had a concert tour that got canceled, but it was already record-breaking in terms of sales. And they’ve sold a quarter of a billion albums so far, and they’re still going.
In fairness, it’s because we can’t believe they’re still going [inaudible 00:33:57] what’s happening.
You’re exactly right. I bought tickets on the last tour just to see evidence. I want to see it.
Come on, this can’t be real.
Well, at some point we’re going to have to face up to, we have to think about what kind of world we’re leaving behind for Keith Richards.
Well said.
Anyway, well with that, Dave, this is great stuff and it’s really important, and it’s so relevant to what’s going on in all industries, but especially ours. If people want to find out more about what you’re doing, where would they look?
First place to go is to my website, Dave Cafarro, it’s D-A-V-E C-O-F-F-A-R-O.com. There’s information on the book, there’s information on me. And so that’s where I would love to have people go and take a look.
Great.
Perfect. Well, thank you so much for your time.
Dave, thanks for joining us. This has been great. We appreciate your sharing with us.
My pleasure. Thank you so much to both of you.
Hi, it’s Julie again, it was great to have you with us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes, it really does help. You can get all the links, show notes and other tidbits from these episodes at becomingreferrable.com. You can also get our free report, three referral myths that limit your growth, and connect with our blogs and other resources. Thanks so much for joining us.