Participants:
Steve Wershing
Julie Littlechild
Shauna Mace
Julie Littlechild: Julie Littlechild: Stephen Wershing: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Stephen Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Stephen Wershing: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Stephen Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Stephen Wershing: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Stephen Wershing: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Stephen Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Stephen Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Stephen Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Stephen Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Stephen Wershing: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Stephen Wershing: Shauna Mace: Stephen Wershing: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Stephen Wershing: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Stephen Wershing: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Stephen Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Stephen Wershing: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Stephen Wershing: Shauna Mace: Julie Littlechild: Stephen Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Stephen Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Shauna Mace: Stephen Wershing:
Welcome to Becoming Referable, the podcast that helps you become the kind of advisor people can’t help talking about. I’m Julie Littlechild, and on this week’s show, Steve and I are joined by Shauna Mace. Shauna is the head of practice management and a managing director with SEI. She joined the company recently bringing more than 15 years of experience in working with advisors, including creating and running her own consulting business. I would describe the focus of this conversation as laying the groundwork for real success. In particular, we focus on the role of confidence and success, whether that’s overconfidence or underconfidence. I love these kinds of conversations because they can get very real. Shauna breaks down the idea of confidence into three key areas, competency, coherence, and community, to give you a framework to take action. And with that, let’s get straight to our conversation with Shauna.
Shauna, welcome to Becoming Referable. Thrilled to have you here.
Welcome Shauna.
Thank you. Yeah, I’m excited to be here.
Yay. When I first reached out to you, you were working in your own firm at the time, which was Inspire Growth and, but even as we were talking, things were changing in your world. So maybe you could just give us an update on where you are and the work that you’re doing right now.
Absolutely. Yeah. So I think I talked to you just before the change, but so today I am head of practice management at SEI, and that, if I had told myself I was going to be doing that January one, I would’ve said no way, wasn’t in the cards, but really it came about because what I was doing, the work I was doing with Inspire Growth, so growth consulting and coaching, I had two main goals for 2021. And those were one, to launch the new brand Inspire Growth. And then two, to figure out how to scale the advice I was giving to advisors, largely RA, but financial advisors and their teams around growth. And so I did the rebrand the beginning of the year and the next focus was really on scale. How do I scale? And so I had ideas about how to do that.
And interestingly things, dots connect when you look backwards, there was an opportunity at SEI, and I knew John Anderson who was running practice management at the time. And I saw this opportunity and I reached out to him. I have enormous respect for him and what he does.
Yeah. Great guy.
Great guy. And I just, the more I learned about the role and about the firm and the people and the solutions they have for advisors, it became very clear that this, one, I couldn’t not do this, if I, at least put my hat in the ring. And two, this was how I was going to scale, because the problem they were looking to solve was the same problem I was looking to solve, which was how do we scale advice? How do we scale advice and support for advisors to help them and their firms and their clients grow? And so I’ve joined just over a month ago, and really excited about the work we’re doing around developing, building and providing practice management solutions to advisors and their teams in a very scalable way. So more to come on that in the future, but I’m excited. I’m very excited about what we’re building out.
That’s great. Congratulations.
Yeah.
Thank you.
It’s interesting too, because as you talk about that, I think it’s easy to get trapped in this idea of, I have a goal and this is the path, but you actually looked at the goal instead of the path and realized there’s actually another way to do what I’m trying to do. And I don’t know if we always hit pause and ask ourselves that question. Maybe we should.
Yeah. Well, I think, yeah, this was not the path, this is not the path at all, but having clarity what I know and when it comes to growth, and maybe we’ll talk a little about this, but having clarity on the goal on what the future you want is, sometimes there is an aspect we can control, there’s a whole lot we can’t control, and sometimes we just have to, opportunity comes and we have to be eyes wide open and be willing to try it even if it’s not the path that we expected.
Yeah.
Well, and it’s a great example too. A lot of people, when they think about goals, they think about the goal and then they think about a path and then they just stop there, but it’s, a lot of people aren’t as creative as they might be about, well, what different ways could I get there? And that, just like for you, it could open up some really interesting payouts.
Absolutely.
Yeah. And for advisors.
Yeah exactly.
Different ways to deliver advice and different, yeah, that’s an interesting thought, but the reason I had reached out initially, because I read a particular article that you had written, and the first line in there was, “The pursuit of growth requires the belief that it’s possible, which is another way of saying you need confidence,” and you had me hooked at that point. So I was all in, but can you just talk a bit about what that means to you?
Yeah. And we talk about clarity, growth, so much of growth we focus on is having a strategy and having tactics, having a plan, and where we don’t, I think spend enough time, and Steve, I think you were alluding to this, Stephen you were alluding to this, it’s around the commitment, it’s around having a commitment and taking the action. So one, we have to believe in order to have the intrinsic motivation to take the action, but at the end of the day, if we’re not feeling safe and secure and confident in our ability, whether, we’ll talk about the attributes, but in our ability to achieve the goal, or make some progress towards the goal, we often don’t even take an action. And so it doesn’t matter how great your plan is, if you’re not taking steps toward it, taking actions toward it, your chances of success are pretty much nil.
So I really do believe that, and what I’ve learned in working with a number of advisors over the years is, having confidence is something that I think everyone struggles with at different times in different ways. And the way I see it manifest as far as growth is that it really, lack of confidence really can enable you, or disable you from taking the actions you need to take, because oftentimes it’s outside of your comfort zone. These are new things if you’re looking to grow and expand in ways that you haven’t today.
Well, it’s really interesting, and we want to talk more about that confidence and what it means. I want to ask maybe tangential thing just for a minute. How do you balance the need to have a goal that you can be confident and versus having a big enough goal to inspire and to really change your business? I’ve spoken with a lot of advisors, and I’ll say, what’s your goal for next year? And they’ll say, to increase business 15%, and I’ll say, what’s it been for the last three years? And they’ll say 15%. So how do you balance the feeling like you know you can achieve it versus the Jim Collins’ big hairy audacious idea.
Yeah. That’s a great question. So, one, when I do teach around goals and effective goal setting, one of the things we talk about is, is it attainable? How attainable is it? And yeah, we don’t want to make it, on one hand we don’t want to make it a layup, it’s too easy, unless that’s what you want, and that’s fine, but how do we really push, move the needle, and in a way that isn’t overwhelming, or so big and scary that we don’t take the action? And one of the ways that I like to work with advisors and their teams and helping them understand and gain confidence in order to take those steps is to, we start with the, whether it’s the big, scary goal, or whatever the goal is, and we work backwards and we break it into very small, tangible, tactical steps.
And so, I like to break goals. I personally don’t think that we should be looking too, too far out. So I like really one year, maybe three year goals, but then I like to break it into quarterly, monthly, weekly, even, what am I doing daily? Really break it down because when we start to break things down, one, gut checks, is this reasonable? Is this realistic? Maybe it’s not, and maybe need to revisit the goal, or if it’s not, what else can we change in order to make it realistic?
And then two, it gives us real clarity about, and a game plan as to what do we need to do, or what do I need to do this week? And oftentimes it comes down to something as simple as, I need to make sure I’m doing one business development activity this week, and this is how we define business development activity. So it really forces you to check in, is this realistic. And then two, in order to do it well, I think you do need to work backwards. And I actually have a tool for that, it’s called goals to outcomes worksheet, where it is about you start at the largest goal, that big goal, and you go right to left and work backwards into figuring out how are we going to actually do this? And what does that look like at a very small scale?
Yeah. I’d love to, that’s really, that’s such an important part. I want to, before we even leave the notion of confidence go back there, because it strikes me that a lot of us, I’ll put myself in this category, do a very good job of masking low confidence. We may be in roles, it’s all very out there, and it’s quite insidious, I think, because it’s not as if you’re consciously saying, well, I don’t feel terribly confident, therefore I’m not going to take this action. You literally, it’s just like internally, you just don’t do it, or you don’t find yourself doing it, but that feels like a big deal. And I imagine you must see that a lot in this industry.
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I really, it’s interesting and shocking. And the reason I wrote the article is because it was coming up so often in the conversations I was having with clients, with prospects, with just, whether it was advisors and their teams, or just even peers where, what I realize is at some points, if you’re growing, if you’re progressing, at some point you inherently are going to lack confidence, because you’re pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone. And the challenge is not letting it stop you. And so I think that self-awareness may be a big part of just knowing it’s coming, it’s going to happen, it’s normal. So now what do I do about it?
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
And so if you’re pushing yourself outside your comfort zone, then how do you maintain that confidence?
Well, I think about, it’s a great question, and first it’s the self-awareness. So when am I feeling, and I tend to think it does tend to be more in your subconscious. So it may be a little bit, when I feel nervous or lack confidence, I feel it in my body, everyone feels it in different ways. And so starting to one, understand what that feels like for you. What are the signals that are unique to you? They may be different for me than they are for the both of you. And so, for me, it’s like, my stomach gets really tight and I’m like holding it all in, I’m not breathing. And so we all have these different cues. So one is just becoming aware of what your cues are, where you’re uncomfortable. And then, two, understanding that there are ways in which you can work through it.
So there are, when I think about confidence, I think about three attributes, there’s competency. So just how well, if I’m, maybe I’m uncomfortable because I don’t really understand, I don’t have all the information or the experience or expertise in a specific situation. So I’m outside of my comfort zone when it comes to competency. So in that case, it may be, I need to become more competent in this subject, in this area, whether it’s, maybe it’s even more comfortable on video, or whatever the thing is that’s making me uncomfortable related to competency. That’s one area, it could be.
The other is coherence. So is this aligned with my values? So again, if I’m not feeling like there’s a misalignment, there’s lack of coherence, it’s not aligned to my purpose in values, it just, it doesn’t pass the gut check literally, that’s another signal that this may be something that is not like there needs to be some evaluation or reevaluation about, is this the right decision? Are these the right partners? So, you got to listen to yourself and you trust your gut to some extent, or at least give it a chance to speak. The third aspect of confidence is community. So this, or the way I think about at least is community. So this idea of feeling like you’re in a space that’s safe, where you’re supported, where you can fail, because we all fail. So, if I’m starting to feel uncomfortable, going and talking to a friend, talking to a mentor, or a trusted person and getting another perspective, looking outside of just myself into my community, to look for help, to help me work through that.
Hey, it’s Steve, we’ll get back to the show in just a minute, but first I’d like to make you an offer. Every week I send out a tip, or an idea to help you become more referable. It might be something I picked up during an advisory board meeting, it might be an idea from one of our amazing guests. Every other week I announce a new interview on the podcast. So never miss an episode, or maybe it’s something I picked up from a new research report, and I deliver it right to your inbox. Would you like to become a little more referable each week? Then send an email to steve@theclientdrivenpractice.com and I’ll even throw in my latest alert, five reasons you need to listen to your clients now before someone else does. Just put five reasons in the subject line, that’s steve@theclientdrivenpractice.com, and put five reasons in the subject line. And I’ll send you your free guide right away. And then a little tip about how to become more referable every week. Now, back to the show.
Can you think of any examples, if our goal is growth as where we started, where does misalignment come in? Is it maybe the way I’m going after that doesn’t quite fit with how I feel I should be, or I feel too salesy, or I feel like, maybe talk about that a bit.
I think yes in all of the above.
Yeah.
There’s lots of ways we could feel misaligned. One example that I see a lot is, we set these goals that one aren’t attainable, or maybe they’re too low, we’re just saying we’re setting a goal because we need to set a goal. Two, it could be the way in which you’re approaching the goal is, again, misaligned. So for example, if you are serving an older client set and yet you’re trying to be more digital and really push the needle as far as how you’re serving those clients, and it’s just, there’s a misalignment between who you’re looking to grow and who you’re serving and how you’re doing it. The approach doesn’t make sense. I think that there’s inherently is a lack of confidence because you’re like, I’m doing what I’m hearing is the right thing, but I know it’s not the right thing, or it’s not working for me and I’m not acknowledging that.
So I think there’s just, yeah, it’s where you don’t necessarily buy into, or maybe your team doesn’t buy into the approach or strategy too. So that’s another area where the people on my team don’t have confidence in the approach and you’re going to feel that amongst your entire organization, if that’s the case, and the impact of your progress is going to be, there’s going to be a direct impact to the amount of progress you can make. So alignment is certainly values and doing what’s the right thing, and also coherence as far as not just your values, but I would also think about who are you serving? Is this an alliance with their values too? And the people on your team?
Yeah. That’s a really good point. And we’ve been talking about having enough confidence so far, but you also talk about being over confident.
That never happens in our industry.
No, no, no.
I’ve never seen that once.
Exactly, especially not in our business.
No, never, never happens.
So, how is that a problem?
Well, we are all over confident at times, all of us. There’s a really famous research study about they asked how do you rank above average as far as your ability to drive a car? And I think it was something like 70%.
72%. Yeah.
70, right. So that’s impossible, 70 plus percent of us cannot be better than average, it literally is statistically impossible. So, I think we are all over confident at times and there’s different reasons why that happens. And again, I think there’s this idea of, Adam Grant has this great book that’s new out called Think Again. So this idea of being open to questioning yourself and allowing others to question you can be a really good way. Let’s not assume that we’re always right, even if we have historically been right in a certain area, maybe it’s because we’re so competent. So I think about advisors, they tend to be very competent in specific technical areas that maybe most of us aren’t, like investments or planning.
Now that doesn’t mean, on one hand, that’s great, yet we also know based on research that the more competent you are in a certain area, you have more ability to have bias or overconfidence because you’re so expert, you tend not to see almost blindside blinded by your expertise. And so I think, there are areas where we all are overconfident for a lot of times different reasons, but first just remembering that that is something that at some point in your life, you’re going to be over confident and allowing and welcoming others to give you feedback and check you, and hold you accountable to reality is going to be an important way to keep that in check.
One of the ways we see that manifested as well is when, actually one of our clients put it better than I ever have, and it’s, he said, “We’re not a proxy for our clients.” He was talking about this idea that, we’re terribly confident, he didn’t say it in these words, but we’re very confident, therefore we know what our clients want, instead of hitting pause. And that can be a huge miss if we’re not willing to ask those questions.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And Julie, you and I’ve spoken about that before about, you might think, but you really need to go ask, but Shauna, what other ways can overconfidence manifest itself? How else can it cause a problem?
Yeah. So when it comes to growth, the way it could manifest itself is that, you go down a path, you make an assumption about what the right approach is, strategy or tactic. You may go down that path and you don’t hold yourself accountable as far as just getting feedback, is this working? And so you keep going down the path and you’re like, it’s not me, it’s something else. So excuses, a lot of excuses can happen, or just wasted time and effort, time, money and effort can happen. So being so focused on, I want to say narrow minded on this one, this is the way, this is the way, this is the way, and really not stopping to check in is this working? And so, one way it manifests itself is, is wasted effort, and I think a lot of frustration when it comes to growth.
So what I see, specifically in business development, when we think about growth, is our people have been putting a lot of effort in marketing, or in business development activities and they’re not reaping the results. And so they just, they assume it’s not me, it’s COVID, or my team’s terrible at sales, or these overarching generalizations that just frankly aren’t true, or maybe there’s some truth in them, but it’s not a hundred percent true, and it can lead to some really negative feedback loops, and not so great activities that don’t produce the results that you want to see in your business.
One of the ways I’ve seen low self-confidence manifest is that people freeze, they just don’t take any action. And I think that really relates to clients as well, for advisors thinking about when clients aren’t doing what they need to do is that really, what’s at the heart of that? And do they also, in addition to looking at their own level of confidence, do they need to become better at helping their clients understand that?
I think that’s a great point. Yeah. Part of, when I think about working with advisors, or even working with someone on a team, part of the role is helping to identify where there may be some gaps or weaknesses around areas where they’re not confident. So again, if I think about the structure, supporting confidence in my mind, it’s get competency, coherence, community. Maybe they don’t understand competency. Maybe it’s not aligned with their values or not feeling great about the approach and then community. They just, they feel like they’re doing something different than others, they’re not comfortable with that. So, yeah, I think that’s a really great point.
And you’ve mentioned team a few times. And so, one of the big risks is that you may be pursuing something in your team may not be on board with that. So, you might become more confident about your efforts in that direction, but how can you help your team get on board with you if there are any questions in their minds about reaching those goals?
Yeah. The first, that’s a great question, and especially given the state of the industry, what we see and we know is that founders are really driving growth in a lot of organizations where there’s one or few key people who are driving growth. And I think when I think long term that’s going to be a challenge. So I think that’s a great question to consider and start to work through today if you are an advisor and you have a team. So, how do you get buy-in from your team? How do you get confidence from your team? One very basic step that I recommend is that you share the goals that you’re, or even include them in the process, if that’s possible, as far as setting goals, but certainly at least be communicating what does success look like? That’s a very easy way to start.
The other way you can get buy-in and gain confidence from your team is to provide them with clarity on not just what success looks like, but what is their role in helping to achieve that? So again, clarity on roles and responsibilities. We know that people love autonomy, people want to develop the skills that matter to them, and they want to feel a sense of purpose and connection. And if we can help support those things, so help them and provide them with some autonomy, not tell them how to do it, but provide them with say, this is what we’re looking to accomplish, and this is your role, would love you to be part of this. How can see yourself helping to add value, or helping to help us grow?
And I believe that no matter what your role is on a team, everyone can, they don’t have do, but can help support the growth of a business. So really this idea of building a culture of development is something that I’m encouraging a lot, and asking for advisors when I’m working with them, please, bring in the people who are going to be responsible for executing on this, or are going to own these processes, or are to be important as far as measuring the metrics, because they need to be involved and have a voice in this while we’re building it out, not just at the back end.
Yeah. The three pillars of self-determination theory. It’s great to hear you bring that in.
Yeah.
Well, and it’s straight, this may be nuanced, but we started just that conversation with how do we get the team on board basically for our own level of confidence, but it seems to me that one of the greatest gifts that we can give our clients, or our team is to help them become more confident, which is more down that development path as you said. And I don’t know, I hear a lot of people talking about it in those terms. It’s skills development. It’s all of these things, but this is at the core of what allows people to succeed. Have you seen anyone trying to tackle that with the team, trying to instill confidence in that way?
Oh, that’s a great question. Have I seen anyone? Yes. So I have, I’ve seen some firms who really have taken, they tend to take a pretty collaborative approach to their business where I’m challenging them a little bit to really look forward. So what does the future look like and what is your role as the leader in the future, what is your team’s role in the future? And so when they start to look forward and they see, and they realize, I can’t do everything I’m doing, and I don’t want to necessarily do everything I’m doing in the future. I think it inspires them to start to recognize how can I think about the people I have today, or maybe there’s future people I hire to help fill the gaps, or help play the roles that are going to be essential to our ability to become this future version of ourselves.
And what I found is that, there’s usually at least one or two, a few people, and if not more, that they really already do trust, people on their team that they trust. They have confidence in those people. And so they’re willing to bring them in. So it may not be the entire team, it may just be one or two key people that you are grooming as future leaders, or are grooming to own parts of the business, like the operations or the development, bringing them in and really focusing your efforts there. And then they then, there’s almost a ripple effect, they then can provide this sort of your modeling this leadership, your modeling this management, and then they learn how to do it and can really help you scale, because I think people at the end of the day are one great way to scale. And oftentimes I would start by looking internally before you look externally.
Yeah. Yeah. You’re just making me think about how we develop our teams and the kinds of resources we offer. And maybe we should be thinking about great programs on grit, or mindfulness, or confidence building and whatnot, in addition to the stuff that we do, how to use Excel more effectively.
Right. Right. Well, listen, the technical skills are important.
Yes, yes.
But if we think, that’s short term benefit, the long term benefit, what are you looking for long term? Is it the next future, next generation of leader? Is it scale? It may not be you who’s driving this, you may not want it to be you, so yeah, how do we develop people and provide them with the opportunity and the autonomy to grow, to tap into their potential and really expand?
Do you want any more about the team Julie?
No, no. I was thinking about referrals and maybe coming back.
Yeah. Yeah. So let’s get in that direction. So we’ve talked about the confidence and the effect on your team. What kind of effect would that confidence have on clients, and how, if it’s possible, could you transmit some of that confidence to clients?
So it’s interesting, we know, I think we all know, if you can imagine someone, if I said, okay, think about someone who’s really confident, we probably could pick, there’s a person that probably pops up in our head. And it’s interesting because when it comes to clients and referrals, one of the best ways to gain rapport, trust buy-in is the non-verbal communication that you provide. So this how are you showing up confidently, less about what you say more about how you show up, or what you do? So, when I think about increasing referability with clients, or with partners, it’s really about things like doing what you say you’re going to do, being prepared, showing up energetically, looking the part. A lot of it is more nonverbal. I think it probably is more important when it comes to referability, and that’s how we’re building trust in the first impression. We all know that matters a whole lot. It’s less about, obviously you have to be competent and you have to know your stuff at a basic level, but it’s less about what you say, it’s more about how you say it.
Yeah. And I have to imagine that if the advisor’s feeling that level of confidence, I’m going to feel the confidence in the plan. I’m much more likely to talk about that as well. And yeah, there are characteristics that make some people feel just more like, okay, you’ve got this, you’ve got me, versus, and it does come through in a lot of nonverbal ways, I think, but it’s, I’m interested in where we started because this stuff is all true, but I don’t know that we all have the level of introspection to even recognize it in ourself sometimes, and to see how it’s impacting. I see it in other people. That’s when it becomes clear, but maybe we need to hold a mirror up from time to time. And so, you’re saying when it comes to referrals, just how you show up. Is there anything else that you can see in a connection between confidence and referrals, or growth that you think is important to talk about?
Oh my gosh, there’s so many things, which I know you all know. And I’ve referenced this right before we started about the referability paper that you did with SEI which I really, you guys did a great job outing the components, but what I see in having worked with advisors for many years, as far as confidence and referrals, the one thing I would say that people aren’t doing enough of is really being very intentional and practiced around how they’re talking about who they serve, what they do and why it matters.
And I don’t mean to just be talking about yourself all the time. Becoming really, practicing that language and having consistent language that your team can use, they can make it their own, that’s fine, but everyone in your organization being able to articulate eloquently, confidently, authentically, who you serve, what the impact is, you need to be painting a picture for the people around you all the time, not just every once in a while, as it’s convenient, but all the time planting these seeds, these referability seeds, in a way where people understand who and why and when to actually send someone your way.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that when any of us is deeply, deeply confident in the value that we deliver, these conversations become much easier, because you’re literally just want to say, I just want to help. I know I can help. I want to help. And we don’t tiptoe around that idea of helping, well, why would we? But so I can see how that connects. Shauna, maybe just, if advisors want to connect with you, what’s the best way to do that?
The best way would be LinkedIn, I do a lot of sharing on LinkedIn and so LinkedIn’s a great way, it’s at, so my LinkedIn handle is Shauna Mace. So really simple. So you look me up there and follow or connect with me, and hopefully you’ll gain some value too, I’ll be sharing some good content around referrals and other business growth activities.
And Shauna, would you spell your name for us? Because there are a couple ways people could approach that.
Sure. It’s S-H-A-U-N-A, and then Mace like the spray, M-A-C-E.
There you go. There’s something we won’t forget.
Yeah. Right.
Well, thank you so much. You do share some great content. So I definitely encourage everybody to connect. I know I get a lot out of it. So thank you so much for being here today and…
Thank you, Shauna.
…and I hope to see you again soon.
Thank you both. This was great.
Hey folks, Steve again, thanks for joining us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes, it really helps. You can get all the links, show notes and other tidbits from these episodes at becomingreferable.com. You can also get our free report, Three Referral Myths That Limit Your Growth, and connect with our blogs and other resources. So until next time, so long.