Participants:
Steve Wershing
Julie Littlechild
Scott McKain
RECORDING COMMENCES: Steve Wershing: Listen to the part of the conversation where we talk about whether always trying to exceed client expectations is realistic. Or, if it’s an upwards spiral that can actually get in your way. It’s an interesting conversation where there are lots of really good tips about how you can stand out from other advisors. Without any further delay, here he is, Scott McKain. Before, Scott, you have a chance to say anything else, this is not my line, but I think of you every time I hear it, I just want a great big bed made of your voice. Welcome to the Becoming Referable podcast, Scott McKain. Scott McKain: Julie Littlechild: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Because of compliance issues in the industry, because of so many other things, it’s kind of the tall poppy syndrome at the very beginning. If you stand out, that’s who we want to cut down. But yet, over the course of practice development, it’s exactly those aspects that will separate you from the pack. Julie Littlechild: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: The pushback I get sometimes is, well, I can’t focus only on surgeons. Well, that’s okay. Maybe you also want to focus on general practitioners, but you don’t advertise that I’m all things to all people. The surgeon thinks that you only do surgeons. The GP thinks you do GPs. You find ways to say, this is what I am, rather than trying to be involved in everything. I’ve had advisors say, “Well, what if this small client wins the lottery?” They literally say that. Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Scott McKain: Well, I don’t know about you, but if somebody knows how I drink my coffee, it’s almost subliminal, well they know me. They would find out the favorite artist of that particular client and they would have prints of that particular artist on the walls in the conference room. They would find out the favorite music and that’s what’s playing in the office when they come in to talk. That sounds incredible. But, I did another project trying to find out what were A+ advisors doing that A- advisors, in terms of production, weren’t. Everything we found about the A+ advisor was they were more like a concierge. They had a very specific group of targets and an ideal client. They served all of their needs, not just their financial needs. It made them distinctive in the minds of their clients. Julie Littlechild: Scott McKain: I agree, sooner or later clients see through this. Particularly, with those of affluence, it’s usually sooner. If we’re not transparent and if we’re not congruent, it’s a detriment rather than a strength to our practice. Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Julie Littlechild: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: The fundamental reason for that is you can’t differentiate what you can’t define. If you can’t tell me what is unique about your practice—I specialize in surgeons or Polo players—Or, there’s some aspect about my experience in the past or this is unique. If you can’t define that, how in the world do you expect a prospect to be able to understand what’s compelling about having you manage my money. If you can’t do that, how do I have the language that enables me to, into your specialty, into the language that helps me refer the practice as a client to a friend? I see so many advisors that say, “What makes me stand out, is I beat the market by 3%” or, “What makes me stand out is we have great client service.” I’m not saying that you don’t have great client service, that’s not the point at all. The point is, from the client’s perspective, that doesn’t distinguish you in the marketplace. Julie Littlechild: Scott McKain: The other thing that’s hard is, and I think this is a parallel that we talked about earlier, in the very beginning of everyone’s career as a financial advisor, everyone’s a prospect. Because most of the advisors I’ve met are really good people, you hear somebody say, you’ve got to cull your book and you’ve got to prioritize your clients, and people don’t like dropping clients. The whole thing about clarity also means, we have to be very precise about what we are not. As our practice changes, some of those clients that we acquired earlier don’t fit into the clarity model of our business. It’s not easy. It is difficult, and therefore, many of us take the path of least resistance, and we’d rather have a book of x-number than are very clear, defined, precise book of a smaller number of y. Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: The Taylor family is starting a small rental car business years ago in St. Louis. They made a list of every point of contact that a rental car agency would have with a customer. It’s in my book, Create Distinction. There are 13 points that they came up with. I encourage advisors to do the same. What’s every point of contact that you could have with a customer or client, a prospect? Harvard recently wrote in business in general, only 16% of professionals even have the list. What are the points of contact? Some will be ones we don’t necessarily think of ordinarily. The church, the mosque, a synagogue, a community event. We sponsor a little league team. Put them all down. That’s what the Taylor family did. They put them all down, came up with 13, and then they picked one and said, let’s tweak it and be creative at this one point. Many listeners I know are already ahead of me, because the Taylor family still owns that little rental car business they started in St. Louis that they named Enterprise Rental Car. Obviously, the one creative point is, how does the customer access the product? They just said, what if we took the car to them rather than making the customer come get the car from us? When I rent from Hertz, I have to go to their counter. Enterprise brings the car to me, and that one little creative tweak, Enterprise is now, as you know, bigger than Hertz. They’re the biggest in the industry. They’re the largest. It’s not because the product is different. It was because they found a creative way to get to the customer. I think the same is true in—I visited one advisor many years ago in Corpus Christi, Texas. Got an amazing practice. He was at that time, a top producer for Merrill Lynch. When I walked in his office, he’s stuffing books in envelopes. He’s signing books. I said, have you written—as soon as I said, have you written, I realized he was signing someone else’s. It was Bill Gates’s book. He said, my top 25 clients, we have a monthly book club. I go out every month and buy 25 books and I read the book first and then I inscribe the front of the book with the part of the book I think will apply to that specific client, and I send them a book every month. How loyal do you think those top 25 are? That every month you get a business book that has in the front an inscription that makes certain on page 118, you read the part about, right, and they get that every month? That’s the client, and that’s unique, and that builds loyalty. I can imagine being in a friend’s office and there’s the new Bill Gates book at that time, it was laying on the desk. You say, hey, how’s that book? You say, my advisor sent it to me. It begins the process of creativity solidifying the relationship. Any advisor can do that, but I’ve only met one that does. Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: He realized that, for example, a client that’s a widow, the experience began when the taxi let her out on the street corner and she had to walk in the building and get in the elevator. Or she had to park in the parking garage and walk alone to the parking garage elevator that would take her to the lobby that would take her to the elevator that would take her to the office. Part of what they started doing at their practice was, either the advisor or the client associate would meet them at the parking garage or would meet them at the lobby front door, or would arrange an Uber to pick them and then drop them off so they could track when the car was going to get there so they had met the client at the beginning. My good friend of many, and you’ve heard Joel Weldon, has a great line, and he’ll ask the audience, how many of you have ever been bitten by an elephant? No one raises their hand. Joel will pause for effect and say, how many have been bitten by a mosquito? And everyone raises their hand and Joel says, it’s the little things that get you. Isn’t that great? Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Julie Littlechild: Scott McKain: Steve, I hope you don’t mind me saying, I think that’s your role, and I think it’s my role is to help get these folks to that 30,000 feet. Not because you ignore the details or you ignore the daily grind and activity that a lot of advisors face, but that’s where I see advisors having challenges and having problems, is because they haven’t done those little things like, and then what? The client is coming to see me. And then what? How am I going to meet them? To really get to the point that their practice is so unique and so distinctive that it stands out from other advisors, they become the advisor of choice. Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Here’s my side of it, and I believe my mom was wrong. Mom always said, familiarity breeds contempt. That’s wrong. The longer you’re my advisor, it doesn’t mean that I hold you in scorn. Familiarity does not breed contempt. The problem is that familiarity breeds complacency. If all you’re doing is serving me for a decade in the way that you’ve always served me, then you might have become complacent in the level of experience that you’re delivering for me. I know that certainly as a client, I become complacent about what you were delivering. Something happens in my financial life, and I’ve got a little bit more money to invest. That’s when I might sample the experience from another advisor. It’s that shiny new object. Well, let’s see what happens. Many clients, I believe, erroneously think that diversity among advisors means diversity in portfolio, and we know that it doesn’t. Yeah, I’m diversified. I’ve got three different people managing my money. Right? Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: [crosstalk 00:31:55] Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: It was a good line. It is. I think this is a sea change in some things. The advisors with the most experience are also those advisors that were brought up, grew up in the industry in a time where you were the source of information. The client came to you for information, because the advisor had access to information that at that point either wasn’t available or wasn’t accessible to the client. That’s gone. A doctor buddy of mine says that his first five minutes with every patient is convincing you that what you read on WebMD may not be what you have. Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: He said, they don’t need the dealership for information anymore. They Google the cars. They come in with information. Now, they’re looking for insight. Help me understand why is this the right choice. That’s a fundamental shift in communication, and it’s a fundamental shift in the practice, is that advisors now that are the best at delivering insight to clients that helps them process the information that they’ve already received are really going to have a leg up in the marketplace, as opposed to those that are still in that old way of thinking, which is that I need to tell you, I need to inform you. Clients today, they have access to infinitely more information. I think that that’s the fundamental change. Yes, we’re advising. Yes, all the other things are critical, but I think the easiest one to overlook is the fundamental change between information and insight in terms of what the client wants the advisor to deliver. Steve Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Scott McKain: Steve Wershing: Julie Littlechild: END OF RECORDING
Welcome to Becoming Referable, the podcast that shows you how to become the kind of advisor people can’t stop talking about. I’m Steve Wershing. This episode, we talk with Scott McKain, who came from the same small town as John Mellencamp, to go all the way to the Professional Speakers Hall of Fame. He is the author of Create Distinction and the mind and the voice behind the podcast, Project Distinct. We’ll talk about creating distinction and how we can use it to create the ultimate customer experience. We talk about why it’s hard to be distinct and how distinction is different than differentiation. We talk about the importance of story in becoming distinct.
What an intro.
I’d have to think over that intro, Steve.
If nothing else it’s distinctive, right?
And, that brings us to our topic of today, right? Thank you very much for joining us. I am so excited to talk with you, because I read your stuff and I’ve seen you speak and its stuff that it’s the kind of thing that I wish I could express to advisors and you just do it so much better. Let’s start right into this, Scott. Your whole message is about creating distinction, so why don’t we start off by you telling us what distinction means to you.
Well, I think distinction is, particularly for financial advisors, it’s the point in your practice where prospects and customers are attracted to you because of what you stand for. Because of who you are. Because of what you represent in the marketplace. Part of that too, it’s not only what you stand for, but what you don’t stand for. You have created an ideal client, and everything about your practice creates that feeling of distinction and investors and clients of distinction seek that out in their advisor. Yet, I’ve never been an advisor, I’m just a client, part of what’s fascinating to me is how the career of an advisor progresses. Where at the beginning, if you’ve got a few bucks you can throw up in the air, you are a prospect.
That’s right.
Right? What happens over a period of time, is you see some advisors that have never gotten out of that mode of trying to be all things to all people, the mentality that launched the practice. Part of what I love about your work Steve, is in terms of how you attract referrals. I see so many folks talking about how you pursue referrals. I love what your language says about attracting them. I think that’s what distinction does. It recognizes that the clients you attract and the referrals that you attract are infinitely more valuable over the long haul, then the ones that you had to pursue.
Well, and–
You–I’m sorry, go ahead.
No, go ahead, finish the thought.
I think that’s rarified air; few advisors get there. But, the ones that do, and that’s what fascinated me, what was the process that enabled some advisors to get there and some organizations to get there, where others seemed to be doing an okay job, but were just missing the mark.
Apart from just the whole background of starting with what I call the accidental practice, why do you think advisors find it hard to be distinct?
I think there’s a couple of things. I think one is that you begin in such a non-distinct way that the very aspects that will separate you from the pack, are those things that you don’t get in typical training. And it’s those things that you – unless something happens along the way that triggers you to make your practice more distinctive, to understand that you can’t proceed by being all things to all people. No one is loyal to a generic. No one has ever said, “I love my financial advisor, she’s exactly like every other one.” [Both laughing] It’s finding those unique aspects will make you stand out, but yet, at the very beginning, that’s where you often get the most push back, right?
Let me just pick up on something you said and make sure I heard it correctly. It essentially sounded like you said until you know what you stand for, it’s hard to stand out. It’s started with what you stand for. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Because I think it’s a really interesting concept that we don’t think about a lot.
Well, Julie, I think part of what happens is that some advisors–I met an advisor one time and she only works with people involved with the sport of Polo. If you don’t own a Polo pony, or if you’re not a participant or involved in the sport in some way, then she’ll refer you to another advisor because she’s isolated her practice on a few select clients that are involved in Polo. Now, obviously if you’re in Polo, you are an affluent individual.
Right, sure.
I mean you wouldn’t work with people that bowl, you know what I mean? You’ve targeted a very select market. But, instantly that person, to your expertise, it becomes very referable. But, also it says, this is who I am. I work with some advisors who focus on surgeons. Part of the strength of that is that you know that surgeons get to the hospital about 5:00 a.m., which means if you want to take them to lunch, it’s probably going to be 10:00 or 10:30 a.m., not noon. Or, if you want to visit them, then a good time to be there is 2:30 not 5:00 o’clock, some of the things that the advisor who tries to be all things to all people might not understand.
I say, “Well, then you should be prospecting at the convenience store.”
There’s a new strategy. That’s a blog post right there.
Try that one.
Yeah, I’m big at 7-11. [All laughing] I see so many advisors who don’t understand. The other aspect is this: I was on a program several years ago and one of the other speakers, I would give anything if I would have followed-up and gotten the name. But I was in the audience and I’ll never forget what he said. He was with Accenture Consulting and they had done a project for UBS. Why did UBS have a dominant market share in Europe, of the ultra-high net worth investor that they don’t have in the United States? Part of what their study had concluded was that what they were doing in Europe—For example, they would enter into the database how the client drank their coffee. So, when they would come in the office, without even asking they would just set a cup of coffee in front of the client already prepared to his or her taste.
It strikes me, as a follow-up to that, that who you choose has to be authentic. It’s one thing for me say, I’m going to target Polo players. And, if a Polo player asks me why, and my only response is, well you seem pretty wealthy as a group. [All laughs] It’s not going to resonate. So, I must have some connection to Polo, to sports, to something in there as well. Is that a fair point?
It’s an extraordinary point. You’re exactly right. Not all of my business is in financial services, but I’ve had some extraordinary experiences because of my exposure to the industry that you folks deal in all the time. I’m the client. I’m trying to say, this is what I found from my research on distinction and this is what I know as a client. There was a guy and he was beginning a second career. He had been an Air Force Pilot and he was beginning a second career, not that he’d retired, as a Financial Advisor. One of the things I talk about is the importance of clarity in your practice. What do you say when someone says, “What do you do?” Part of the phrase that we came up with for him, that really had traction with him is, he started saying, “I fly people through financial turbulence.” Which I thought was a great line. But, to your point, it was very congruent with him because he understood how turbulence upset passengers on a plane and how he had fought turbulence before. During times of market volatility, the fact that he understood turbulence and he could use that as the metaphor for how he was going to help you avoid a turbulent market, really had congruency. It’s part of who he really is as a person.
Scott, you’re sort of getting at it here with some of that very specific language, but can you address the issue of people who attempt to differentiate themselves based on outstanding service and how that’s different from distinction?
Oh, I appreciate the question Steve. Yeah, that’s one of my pet peeves, as you know, because you’ve heard the presentation. We did a research project for a particular financial firm and we asked advisors, the basic question was, if I moved to your community and wanted somebody local to be my advisor, why would I pick you? What would make you stand out? Eighty percent of advisors said, “Our client service makes us different.” [All laugh]
We use the same data, by the way. [All laugh]
It’s like the old statistic that 80% of us think we’re better than average drivers.
Yeah, right exactly.
Eighty percent of can’t be better than average, that’s kind of the definition. So, 80% can’t make you different, right? Part of what happens is – picture this from the client’s perspective too. If I’m talking to several advisors as a prospect, and all of them say their client experience makes them stand out, then you’ve just commoditized the client experience. Because you haven’t expressed how your experience is different or distinctive or superior. What I’m encouraging advisors to do, is to begin with clarity. As we researched it, we found out there were four basic cornerstones to distinction and the initial cornerstone is clarity. You’ve got to be crystal clear about who you are, what you stand for, what is the strength of your practice.
Absolutely. Why do you think clarity is such a challenge? And I don’t know if it’s unique to our industry, but it seems to demand a level of introspection that can be really challenging for people.
You’ve hit the nail on the head Julie, I think. It is that introspection that is so challenging for us. According to some reports, at the time I was working with them, I haven’t looked lately, but the seventh-largest financial institution in the United States is a company called CoBank. It’s bank for cooperatives. They lend money to electric utility cooperatives and agricultural cooperatives and building cooperatives. The CEO of CoBank, who just recently retired, his name is Bob Engel, formerly of HSBC, he told me this clarity process was the single hardest thing he had ever done as an executive. I think part of it is because in any organization, even organizations not involved in financial services, it ends up sounding like a committee report. Everybody wants their little nudge in there. Through great client experience, we provide superior returns for investors who are interested in stability. It sounds like it’s written by a committee.
One of the other cornerstones that you point is creativity. First, I know that creativity is hard. That’s one obstacle, but one of the other obstacles is the regulatory regime, how heavily regulated the financial services industry is. What kinds of ideas could you share with advisors on how they can be creative still within the regulatory framework of the business?
Great question. I think one of the problems, Steve, is that the clarity is the first one and creativity is the second one. Because we don’t get clear to begin with, then any time we try something creative, it doesn’t give us traction with clients. We just keep doing what we’ve always done, because we think that that’s going to continue to work. Creativity in financial services doesn’t mean that we’re not compliant. It doesn’t mean that we’re not doing—we don’t have to do anything loud. The other thing I’ve discovered is, many times, advisors think that creativity means undisciplined or chaotic or wild, and it’s really not. It’s just finding a small way to tweak. The example that I use, it’s not a financial services example, but I hope it goes straight to the point, is that if you have a rental car business, the Ford that Hertz rents is identical to the Ford that Avis rents. There is zero product variation. What I suggest to advisors is in many situations, the mutual fund that advisor A recommends isn’t any different. I can still buy that same mutual fund from advisor B as well. There’s limited product variation as well. So how do you differentiate yourself? How do you set yourself apart in that?
Right, and that actually brings us to that next cornerstone, which is that customer experience focus. If an advisor was going to work on starting to create distinction, how would they begin to look at their experience to try to hone it down to something that will help them be distinct?
It’s trying to look at it, and this is part of what I love about what you folks talk about and what you preach, Steve, is like the client advisory board. It’s finding a way, and I’m such a fan of what you talk about and that is just one of the points I think is so incredibly important, because how do you find a way to see your practice through the clients’ perspective? This is not uncommon. I find it true in every business. When I’m working with the tech folks, the techies tend to design features that will appeal to other techies that do what they do as opposed to, how does the end user use it conveniently? It’s not uncommon, but we tend to view our—for example, I had a situation in Washington, D.C., where we were talking about exactly the question that you raised. Part of what this particular advisor understood was, he thought the client experience began when the client walked in the office door, and they’re based in downtown Washington.
That’s awesome.
I find that in the client experience focus is that when we’re obsessed by, what does it feel like? What is the experience? It’s those little things. All of us could get on Uber and order an Uber for the client in a metropolitan area and then know exactly when they’re going to get there so the client associate welcomes them in the lobby and walks them into the—we could all do that, but so few of us do because we major in minor things sometimes, as opposed to the little things that would create such compelling experience for the client that they couldn’t wait to tell their friends about it.
I guess you could argue that the client experience really started when the person even thought about getting financial advice. You can take it back and really work through exactly that level of detail every step of the way.
Julie, the three most important words I’ve ever found in creating that experience is, and then what? The prospect is considering getting financial advice. And then what? How do I get in front of them? They first see something about our practice. What do they need to see? They see something about it. And then what? When we keep asking that question, and then what? It’s funny. If we were going to make a movie, we would never think about casting the actors and hiring the technical professionals to do the sound and the lights and leasing the camera equipment and then build the sets and then get everybody together and say, okay, what’s this movie going to be about? To begin with, this is the communication. This is the dialogue. This is what we’re going to say, and then everything else would spring from that. Yet, when we become financial advisors, we launch our practice and we get so involved in doing what we do that we haven’t really taken the time to step back and think about what we do.
That whole client experience thing leads me to something, and I would like to maybe have a friendly debate with you about this. One of the things that you talk about is delivering more than you promise. I hear a lot of people about creating a wow experience and going above and beyond. One of the challenges that I have is that if you consistently deliver a certain level of service that may be beyond their expectations, what you end up doing is just resetting their expectations. While that’s good, there’s a limit to that. It’s one thing if you rent a car from someone once every year, once every couple of years. You’re only going to have so many experiences with them, but if you are with an advisor, the advisor at least is hoping that you’re going to have a relationship for 10 and 20 and 30 and 40 years. How do you systematically exceed expectations when you’ve got a long-term kind of relationship like that and it’s not transactional?
That’s a terrific point. Part of the challenge that I have in that is that typically, when advisors say, we exceed client expectations, one of the challenges that I have with that is that I will follow up and I will say, great. Tell me specifically about this client. What is their expectation? Well, I think that—no. You can’t exceed an expectation of which you are unaware. Exceeding an expectation also means that we’ve worked with the client to define what those expectations are, and they’re not the same for every client. As we well know, clients are different from one another. They have different risk tolerances. They have many different aspects and peculiarities about them that we need to understand. I do believe that behavior rewarded is behavior repeated, as Dr. Michael LeBoeuf says in his book. The challenge, as Dr. LeBoeuf points out is that it’s exactly the phenomena that you talk about. When we reward their expectations, then they just repeat it and set higher expectations.
Right, sure.
Right, a shiny object. I’m an advisor, and I’m really diversified. They’ve all got the client the same thing, and the client doesn’t have portfolio diversity. They just have diversity in terms of financial advisors. I think that’s where part of this comes from. First of all, you can’t exceed an expectation of which you’re unaware, which means you have to have a conversation with clients about, help me understand. What do you expect from an advisor? How can we deliver an ultimate client experience? Then, finding ways to tweak that. It’s not that you’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater and blowing everything up. It’s just continually trying to raise your game so that you’re doing something that is an element that shows the client that you are passionate about the experience that you’re creating for them.
We joke about this every so often, but actually, it turns out it’s true. Having a client is really like being married, and you’ve got to keep it fresh very once in a while.
Yeah. I’m not going to mention that to my wife. [All laughs]
Right. Okay, thank you. Not unless you want to become her financial advisor.
Yes, exactly. [All laugh] Every time she comes to a speech and she hears me talking about that familiarity breeds complacency, I get this wink from the back of the room.
Exactly. Whoops.
Exactly, exactly. Listen, I want to get at least one more question in, because I’m interested in your perspective on this. How has the Internet affected becoming distinct?
I had the greatest, it was in another industry, from the automotive industry. I said, is the Internet impacting your sales? The national sales manager of a big automotive company said, yeah. It’s impacting our sales. We can’t get our people off of Facebook to go out and sell.
Wait, what?
It was on WebMD. I’ve got a brain tumor, what else could… I think advisors are in a very similar situation, where you have clients that are on the Internet all the time and they see things. What has shifted, I think, for many practices, is that what your clients are seeking is insight. Where before, they were seeking information. I was having dinner with the CEO of BMW for the United Kingdom. He said, six years ago, our average BMW customer, and part of why I’m telling this is think of it, the BMW customer is probably the same person that’s the client of the advisors that are listening to this program. The average BMW customer six years ago made six dealership visits before a purchase decision. Not just at a BMW dealership. They would go drive a Porsche if they want a sports car. They’d drive an Audi or they’d drive a Mercedes or a Lexus. It took six dealership visits to get to a purchase decision. Today, it’s 1.3, and I said, why? Why the difference?
Yeah. It’s a great point. Scott, there’s so much great stuff you have to tell and so much to share, but we’re actually a—Julie, did you want to ask anything else before we go?
I want to ask about 100 more things, but I’m trying to be respectful here.
I just want to say, too, I’m such a fan of your podcast. I got introduced to it when you had my pal David Meerman Scott on.
Oh, yeah. We loved that conversation, it was great.
He did fabulous. It was a great conversation you had with him. So, thank you so much for letting me—
Well, thanks for coming with us. I’ve enjoyed this conversation as much as our conversation with David, and I love your presentation just like I love his. Everybody needs to read Create Distinction, and people should listen to the Project Distinct podcast. If people were going to try to connect with you, Scott, where would they go looking for you?
The best place is just to go to scottmckain.com. It’s not like the senator from Arizona. I spell it M-C-K-A-I-N, but scottmckain.com. I have links to everything and all the information, all the access to books and everything else. So, thank you for asking that, Steve.
And thank you very much for joining us here on the Becoming Referable podcast.
Hi. It’s Julie again. It was great to have you with us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It really does help. You can get all the links, show notes, and other tidbits from these episodes at becomingreferable.com. You can also get our free report, Three Referral Myths that Limit your Growth, and connect with our blogs and other resources. Thanks so much for joining us.