Participants:
Julie Littlechild
Steve Wershing
Dave Patchen
Julie:
Welcome to another episode of Becoming Referable, the podcast that helps you be the kind of advisor people can’t stop talking about. I’m Julie Littlechild. On this week’s show, Steve and I have a great conversation with Dave Patchen. Dave is the Senior Vice President of Education and Practice Management with Raymond James. Now, he began his career as a wirehouse advisor before moving on to become an independent contractor. From there, he joined Raymond James as a recruiter before making the move into regional management and then taking on his current role.
Now, his resume doesn’t exactly say this, but I can tell you that Dave is a big thinker, and that’s why we were so excited to speak with him. It’s not only that he understands the advisory business inside and out, he does, but he has a unique understanding and perspective on what gets in the way of success and what propels us forward. We also talk about the challenge that clients have in understanding their own needs and the challenge and opportunity that represents for advisors. With that, let’s get straight to the conversation. Dave, welcome to the show today.
Steve:
Welcome, Dave.
Dave:
Thanks, folks. How are you today?
Julie:
Awesome.
Steve:
Great.
Julie:
Really looking forward to talking to you, actually. You know, Dave, one of the things that I’m so interested about this conversation is I feel like you bring this incredibly unique perspective, because you have worked with so many advisors over the years, but you’ve gone deep in understanding their businesses. You’ve built programs, you’ve managed big groups of people in your role, so I think you just bring this incredibly unique perspective to the conversation. Maybe because of that, I’d love it if we could just start at a fairly high level and just ask you, today as you’re out there talking to advisors, what do you see as some of the biggest challenges and opportunities that they’re facing?
Dave:
Thanks, Julie, for teeing that up. My background is unique in that I’ve got to work with advisors in so many different levels and so many different roles, both supervision, sales management, coaching, still do a lot of one-on-one coaching work. The biggest challenge that I see them having today is maintaining high levels of connection with clients. You know, connection’s becoming somewhat of a new age term.
Demographically, I would say older advisors probably look at it differently than some of the millennials that we’re training right now. Connection means really understanding at a deep level, and empathizing with prospects and clients and understanding what they’re going through, understanding what they’re experiencing. I don’t see advisors doing this as well as I think they could or as well as I think they should.
Julie:
I mean, it’s a really interesting observation, because I would imagine that most advisors who get into this business to help people would see that as one of their strengths. Do you see that disconnect?
Dave:
Agreed. I do. Here’s the thing. I think they see it in the context of earning business, initially. I think there’s some context of it from a client retention standpoint, but there’s this thing that we’ve discussed a little bit in the past, I call it immersion bias. Because advisors do what they do and play in their space their entire career, they lose sight of the fact that the average client doesn’t understand what’s going on. There’s some macro forces that are driving this, there’s technological forces, there’s pace of change, there’s information overload, there’s geopolitical events, there’s regulation overload.
Since we’re dealing with this stuff every day… This is actually a compliment to advisors. Advisors don’t feel like they’re smarter than everyone else. They do feel like they’re connected. They feel like if I’m aware of all this stuff and I’m sensing and feeling and working and navigating through this, my clients probably are dealing with the same thing. Although they’re experiencing all of these stimuli, they’re not dealing with it at the same level than an advisor is, and that’s where the disconnect comes from.
Steve:
Dave, I just want to clarify something. The way that I believe I would put what you’re saying is that one of the challenges that advisors have is demonstrating their value and their client’s not sitting right in front of them. Is that what you’re talking about or you’re talking about something different?
Dave:
Yes. I am talking about that. This whole value… I call it a value gap, and that’s the perceived gap between what the advisor thinks the client knows about them and values from the offering. If you ask the client a question about what they like about what the advisor does and what they value, you’re going to find the gap. I mean, this is what’s fascinating about this when you work with advisors is… I know with speaking specifically with Julie, Julie knows a lot about advisors surveying their clients. If they actually will do the survey work, and it doesn’t have to be a formal written survey, if they just add a question or two to their review process face-to-face with their top clients, they’re going to hear these gaps.
You know, one of my favorite questions is, at some point in the annual review, ask them for permission to ask about how we’re servicing you. Do you mind if we ask you a few questions just to see how we’re doing? Of course, your clients are going to say yes. Then have a question something along the lines of, Mister and Missus client, if you were to describe the services we provide to you to a close friend or family member, what would you tell them? I’ve coached so many advisors through this and they don’t believe me when I tell them that I try to pre-empt it. I tell them what the client’s going to say, and the client is not going to describe the services they provide. They’re not. They’re going to say they like and trust them, and there is the gap.
Julie:
Am I right that you’re talking about two different gaps here or are they part in parcel of the same thing? You’ve described a value gap and you started off talking about all these various complexities and inputs that we’re all faced with, and there could be a knowledge or an understanding gap. Have I got that right?
Dave:
Yes. It is one and the same. All of those macro forces are basically homogenizing in a client investor’s mind, what an advisor is doing for them other than some of the rudimentary things like sending statements, providing updates, meeting for a review, checking in with them, etc.
Julie:
The immersion piece of it is that we just get too caught up in what we believe to be the case without asking?
Dave:
Yes. This isn’t just akin to our profession.
Julie:
No.
Dave:
You could say this about any professional service line of work. If it’s subject matter that you’re diving in too deeply on a regular basis, that proximity, another word for it is proximity bias, is going to really rule the day versus who your client is, who the general populace is and their knowledge base.
Steve:
Go ahead, Julie. I’m sorry.
Julie:
That’s okay. Steve and I do this a lot, by the way. We’ve two different pieces going on. I sense they’re both really important to this equation, it’s what the advisor’s doing, but it also sounds like the understanding what the investor is doing. I know you’ve talked about investors having a general lack of awareness about their own needs. Can you talk about that and how that sort of plays into all of these?
Dave:
You know what? Great opportunity to share a story that I share with experienced advisors as well as new advisors in our new advisor training program, it’s a story of a client advisory board that I did for a top advisor team a couple of years back. This was the first time they were doing a client advisory board meeting, and they asked if I would come up as their coach and observe their initial meeting. I said, sure, I’d be happy to. I go up to the meeting, they had rented a very nice room, private room in a restaurant, and I was just introduced as the Raymond James corporate guy. You know, I was making nice with people during the cocktail and hors d’oeuvre session.
Then we sat down and it was basically a horseshoe shaped table. There were 11 of their top clients sitting around this table and the three of us were sitting in the front of the room. The question and answer portion started and, at one point, one of the clients said something along the following lines. This was 2014 and they were reflecting on 2013 market performance. They said, advisor and junior advisor, we love the fact that you have performance on the statements that you sent us, but last year when look at how we did in the diversified portfolio, and we understand diversification, but when we look at how your portfolio did, at 13% versus the S&P 500 at 27%, that gap just seems too big.
I sensed an opportunity and as I say to financial advisors, maybe this is your cue not to invite me to your client advisory board meetings. I sensed and opportunity and I raised my hand and the client that was speaking said, sure, Raymond James corporate guy, what’s up? I said, may I ask a question? I figured I should ask permission even further. They said, of course. Here was the question, folks, what is the S&P 500? That was my question. 11 seven-figure net worth clients of this advisor’s practice were in that room. Not one of those 11 people accurately answered that question. There’s no story I can tell that better solidifies what we talked about in the beginning of this conversation. I call that the third level of knowledge.
I like to say there’s three levels, people know what they know, they know what they don’t know, and the third level is they don’t know what they don’t know. Because of those forces I mentioned early on in this call, my contention is, while all three of those buckets, because of all this access to information are growing, meaning I think people know more about what they know today than they did before, and I think they know more that they don’t know, but I think that third bucket, that amount of information people don’t even know they don’t know, is growing exponentially.
The good news is, and this is really what I think is the essence of the highest level of connectivity in value of advisors, the advisors that ask really great questions and not only provide a lot of insight based on the questions they’re asking to prospects and clients, but also create some vulnerability and some discomfort. When they can do that and do that really, really well, it starts to change this equation, it starts to close this gap.
Steve:
I’d like to ask you a little more about that, but before I do, I’d like to go back just a little bit. It was revealing, because as soon as that client in the advisory board said, we understand diversification and now let’s compare you to the S&P 500. Of course, you instantly know that they don’t know and that’s probably what prompted your question. I wanted to ask you, is this an advisor who does planning or just investment management?
Dave:
Both. This is a CFP with a comprehensive financial…
Steve:
Yeah. I see that all the time. You know? This is one of those things that I think advisors don’t understand, but it’s also something that advisors do to themselves. You know, the real value comes from the advice. You know, the financial planning, it doesn’t come from the investment management. You know, you can get that from Betterment if you needed to. Advisors end up talking so much about the investments that they essentially persuade their clients to forget that all of this value is coming out of the planning. Do you see that, too?
Dave:
It’s even worse. I agree with you, Stephen. Even if they are spending that much time talking about the performance, and the markets, in the portfolios, the clients don’t understand what they’re talking about anyway based on what I’ve just described.
Steve:
Right. Exactly.
Dave:
They don’t. Here’s the thing, the reason that … You know, we consider our advisors our clients at Raymond James, and I know they’re your clients as well, so let’s give our advisor clients the benefit of the doubt here, that the reason that they talk to clients about the performance to some degree is it’s a little easier to keep score of, right? I mean, it’s easier to measure and track and to make meaningful sense on whether or not you’re making progress.
The planning piece, unless … We have some advisors that have developed some really, really intricate Excel type tools where they are monitoring and aggregating the planning pieces on an ongoing basis, and there’s red, yellow, and green, and the clients that are closing all of the planning gaps are getting all greens, that allows you to keep score in the planning space, but the planning piece is much harder for advisors to, I think, keep meaningful progress checks on with the clients. Does that make sense?
Steve:
Yeah. I think, in addition to that, with financial planning, you do a lot of the heavy lifting upfront. Once you’ve done that financial planning, everything’s on track and everything’s on course, and you’ve addressed other things over time, your beneficiaries are all straightened out and those kinds of things, sometimes that conversation tends to taper off because there’s just not anything more you need to do. I think it’s like you said, you’re not keeping score of it, they approach financial planning like a task to be done, and when it’s done, then it’s kind of done.
Like you’re saying, we need for a way to bring that back into the conversation. You’re always addressing some of the planning things so that they can remember that that’s where a lot of that value comes from. I think that example that you use of having that kind of a score card is brilliant. Are there other kinds of things you have seen from advisors where they helped the planning stay in the conversation long-term?
Dave:
Yes. What they do is they chunk these tools up into … they chunk them up by target market, they chunk them up by demographic, they chunk them by money in motion. Anytime a client has an application that fits in one of those different buckets, so to speak, they’re able to bring a whole new lens into the conversation that the client is going to get some value from going through that step in the process, if that makes sense.
Julie:
If I can just sort of pick up on what we started with a lack of awareness. In your example, it was about the S&P and had extended the conversation from them. If we go back to that general lack of awareness, what do you think is important for clients to understand and how can advisors actually tease out what’s important. I mean, I’m making an assumption that it’s not important for them to understand every single detail.
Dave:
Agreed. Great question. It gets back to … You know, I don’t just talk about asking great questions, we teach asking great questions. One of the things that we teach, and that the most experienced advisors have so much ground to plow here, is that because they’re less likely to do what I’m about to describe, where a newer advisor is more comfortable doing what I’m about to describe, we call them fuzzy words. Fuzzy words are words that can have multiple meanings. When you start to dig into what is or isn’t a fuzzy word, almost every word is a fuzzy word. Okay? When a client or prospect says the word market, would we all agree that market means different things to different people?
Steve:
Sure. Yeah.
Dave:
Okay? When somebody says, you know what do you think about the market? What percentage of advisors just start doing a verbal dump in response to that question? Versus, what percentage say, you know, Julie, Stephen, in consideration of your question, a lot of people have a different context on what market they’re referring to, give me more color when you market on what market you’re speaking of. Now, that’s a little bit of a simplistic example that you probably wouldn’t do with somebody you perceive as sophisticated. If somebody said the word risk, so let’s change into a different fuzzy word.
Risk is one where you’re in the locker room after a round of golf, you’re talking to somebody that you might not have talked to before and they say the word risk, that’s a perfect time to pounce on a fuzzy word. What does the typical advisor do and more often than not the experienced advisor, they start to respond without having the information that I think is critical to have the best response. By the way, S&P 500 was the fuzzy word back to my example of the client advisory board event. Stephen, you really nailed it. I mean, by their very description, they did not understand diversification. Okay? They didn’t.
Steve:
Exactly.
Dave:
I knew that. Here’s the other thing, and advisors all know this, but I’m going to remind them, most wealth in our country is still first-generation wealth. Those who have build wealth generally have a reasonable sized, I’m being nice here, reasonable sized ego that companies that affluence and they don’t like being talked down to, god forbid, or told what to do. If we’re really good, we don’t tell people this stuff. We ask them questions and try and create insight. My favorite word used to be pain.
You know, no pain, no change. What I found is, insight is what people are looking for. Insight is really what gets people’s attention. Insight is the invitation to awareness, and insight and awareness are the segue to pain. It’s kind of like the foundation or the groundwork that’s necessary to reach the point in the conversation where they really are sensing there’s some possible gaps in their individual situation. More than that, because there’s perceived value to insight, there’s more likelihood that they want to actually continue the conversation.
Julie:
I think this is great insight, generally, in all of our relationships, frankly. I think we make so many assumptions, right, when we’re talking to people, but I’d love to pick up on this idea of questioning. I think it’s so important. Can you give us any other examples of how you talk to advisors about the kinds of questions that might draw out what’s important?
Dave:
Absolutely. There’s just a couple of things that we teach. We keep it very simple, so I’ll just share a couple of those with you as examples. What and how we like to say are two of the most powerful words in the English language, so you really can’t ask a what or how question and not get a decent amount of feedback from a what and how question. We teach them to try not to use why. Why is typically used with children insubordinates and has a kind of added implication that you either did something you shouldn’t or you didn’t do something that you should have, so we try to teach them not to ask why. Then my other favorite is what we call a spectrum question, and there are so many great opportunities to create a spectrum within a conversation.
A spectrum is just something time bound from beginning to end. When you frame a question that way, it requires the person you’re talking to to harken back to their memory archives, so to speak, and put a lot of thought into the timeframe you’ve laid out in order to answer the question. Let me give you a good example, because I love … You know, we have a new advisor class in right now, so I’m kind of in my new advisor mode. These are questions that experienced advisors can absolutely use, too. When somebody tells you they’re already working with an advisor, I’d throw it out there, I can do it right now and pause hypothetically and say, what would you say, but hopefully you have a response to that.
Once you’re starting to have some dialogue around that, a great spectrum question would be, you know, Julie, you mentioned that you have an advisor and you’ve been working with them for the past 15 years. Can you give me an idea, from the very beginning, how did you meet the person, were you referred to the person, do you remember who referred you, can you tell me how the process started, how many meetings there were, did you do a plan, all the way up to how it’s gone over those last 15 years, up until the last couple of times you’ve met and the things you’ve talked about, give me an idea over that 15-year period of time some of how that’s played out? Okay? Now, think about the depth of content you’re going to get from their response to that question.
Julie:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Steve:
Yeah. That’s a great question.
Dave:
People say, I can’t have really good, deep conversations with somebody. You’re not just asking the right questions. All of the stuff I put in front of the what and how there, we call framing and buffering. A lot of what we dive deeper on with advisors is helping them do the proper framing and buffering to their what and how questions. If you just do those things, if you really practice what and how … Julie, you made such a great comment earlier. I’m blessed I have one of these spouses that I practice this stuff. My wife is so sweet and different than me that she doesn’t even know I’m practicing on her most of the time. This stuff applies in your personal life. Okay? When my kids are going off the rails, I’ll sit them down, I’ll look them in the eyes and I’ll say, what pain inside you gives rise to your behavior? Try that one some time.
Steve:
Yeah. Right. That’s bordering on Zen right there.
Julie:
Yeah. That’s right.
Dave:
Yes. Exactly. Try that. Yeah, it comes from Eckhart Tolle. Nice catch. Try that with an adult some time. Try it with one of your colleagues at work when they’re acting crazy. This stuff applies. What and how in your personal life has a ton of benefit in the context of better understanding, empathizing, and connecting with other people.
Steve:
This gets back, Dave, to something that you mentioned before that I wanted to probe a little bit more. You’d talked a little bit about being vulnerable with clients and it’s something that we’ve heard brought up before, and I’d love to get more of your perspective on what you mean by being vulnerable with clients and prospects and how that plays out.
Dave:
My experience there is that is very case dependent and the level of knowledge and understanding you have in each individual relationship is going to drive the direction you’re going to go there. If I’m sounding like it’s a hard question to answer, it is, because you almost need a specific scenario to make discussing it and digging deeper into it more meaningful. Probably a bad answer, but what are your thoughts on that? Am I making sense?
Julie:
In terms of the specifics, yeah, I can see. I mean, if I were to try to play that back, I guess how you show up is being open and vulnerable. There’s context to that. There’s isn’t a way to do that. Maybe there are some commonalities around the kind of information you’re willing to share, how open you are about your own life, the stories that you tell. Yeah, I can see exactly what you mean. I mean, it’s not like you say, hi, this is my friend Dave and I tell you about a childhood experience or something. You know?
Dave:
Exactly. This is an interesting way of putting it, and this is something I see millennials struggle with more than … I want to be careful because those millennials that are out there listening, don’t be offended by talk around your demographic, because I’m training many of you and I’m close to many of you, but some of it maybe because you’re younger. I was less inclined to have challenging conversation when I was 27 years old than I am now that I’m 53.
Some of it may be that you’re young, but the language I use is, you have to get comfortable making other people uncomfortable. Millennials aren’t necessarily as wired to have difficult conversations as especially in the context of financial challenges that I think they need to be at times. Maybe the salesy type advisor of any age isn’t. They only want to talk about the good stuff rather than digging it a little deeper.
Steve:
There’s a risk, too, that if you … You know, you have to be very careful, I think, when … If you talk about making clients uncomfortable, which I think is really important, you can misinterpret that and do it in a way that makes you sound like the smart guy, but that’s not what you mean. I think that’s something that advisors need to be sensitive to and thoughtful around. How do you train advisors to do that kind of thing where they don’t just denigrate their client’s lack of knowledge so that they can prove how much they know?
Dave:
Exactly. Now, these are great points. Because you can come off as being coy, you can come off as being a wise guy, the only way I can … There’s no shortcut here. This is all about practice. This is about, even within a conversation, asking for feedback along the way. You know, is this making sense, Julie? Do you understand where I’m coming from? You have to really engage the person and you have to monitor on an ongoing basis to make sure you’re staying engaged and staying connected.
Julie:
It’s so funny, because just the words you know that I’m sort of honing in on words from our conversation and there’s a huge difference between probably saying, does this make sense, and saying, am I making sense? You know what I mean?
Dave:
Yes.
Julie:
Like everything is open for interpretation and it’s interesting how the smallest change can change the entire tenor of the conversation.
Dave:
It’s such a valid observation. You know, this is the tough thing about training today. Today, a lot of us grew up with scripts and we saw the benefit of scripts. For lack of anything else, I like scripts because it allowed me to measure. If I tweaked something and it got better or worse, at least I knew because had changed it and stuck to what I changed and compared it to what I was doing before.
We want to be natural in our communications, we want to be comfortable in our communications, but there are some things that the right use of the right words and the nuance associated with that, it just can’t be underestimated. There are certain parts of certain conversations, critical conversations that I really want advisors to pay close attention to the words they’re using.
Julie:
Yeah. That makes sense.
Steve:
Like you said, Dave, I think one of the challenges is that these are skills and you need to practice them, you know, that you can’t just … I think one of the things that advisors, like a lot of people are looking for, is just, okay, just tell me what to do and I’ll go do it. They need to be developed. You know, when advisors think about skill building, a lot of times, they want to go to the, you know, what’s the seminar that’s coming up on the Roth, you know, or what’s the latest in modern portfolio theory, but they’re not as interested, frankly, in doing the hard work of learning how to communicate better in a more nuanced way. Do you observe that with the people you train?
Dave:
Yes. A funny segue to a written conversation, written dialogue Julie and I had about a year ago, Julie’s going to know what I’m talking about here in a second, we talked about the history of how advisors have been trained. Advisors have been trained by going to conferences and listening to 50-minute infomercials that they get CE on, but that isn’t how people learn. Adults learn from actual practice and doing. Now, don’t worry, advisors. I hear what you’re saying out there. I know you don’t like role-playing. Nobody likes role-playing, but it is how you learn, you have to practice.
We as the educators have to take some of this on the chin, it’s partly our fault as an industry. This is how our advisors have become conditioned to going to an event and being presented to, but they’ve got to up their game and they’ve got to be willing to go to an event, maybe even do pre-work before an event, do actual hands-on roll up the sleeves, practicing while they’re at the event, and then they have to commit to more practice after they leave if they really want to have realistic chance of changing behaviors moving forward. That’s just the fact.
Julie:
It’s so interesting because the reality is that that is what, of course, the research showed, right? Then the research that Dave and I were talking about was about what caused transformation in the business, and it was all of those things. Having said that so many events, and let’s face it, I’d be guilty of this as well, was we’re trying to get good rating, right? Good ratings aren’t always transformation. I think you’re right. We all need to come together and figure out what’s right and best here.
Now, if you don’t mind, I just wanted to jump in with a question, because I know we’re sort of a little bit over our time and I’m hoping you’ll give us a little more of your time here. I was wondering about how this ties back to our overarching theme of the podcast which, of course, is about becoming referable. We’ve talked about connection and conversation and words. Dave, how do you think that plays into either driving referrals or simply becoming referable?
Dave:
Simply, it all comes together. It’s all about empathy. The most desired characteristic of an advisor and really of an advice-providing professional is empathy. There’s no greater way to convey empathy than to ask good questions and show that you care. The referability is going to come from … think about the act of a referral. Think about, especially a high quality … Julie, you have done as much research on this as anyone, the highly engaged client that’s providing this referral, a big reason they’re comfortable providing it, and generally, who are they providing it to. It’s a close friend or family member.
They will only put you as a professional in front of that close friend or family member if they have a high degree of comfort in you, trust in you, believe that you have a high degree of empathy as a human being. Salespeople are never going to earn … For salespeople to even to expect to earn that is somewhat offensive. You can see my tone of voice start to change there. It’s almost borderline disturbing. A salesperson shouldn’t be asking for referrals or getting referrals, because nobody likes salespeople. Professionals that care and connect and ask should be getting referrals.
I’d want to kind of wrap up by saying, I want you as a professional in our trade to turn the lens back on yourself and start to, with your clients’ permission, in a best case scenario, record some of your meetings and really put the filter on about how much you’re talking and asking versus how much you’re telling and selling. If you do that and if you’re honest about it, I think it will be enlightening, I think it will create the insight and awareness and the discomfort in what you’re doing and how you’re doing it, and I think you will be open to start to change your behaviors. Because if you can get to the point where you really are asking questions, listening for fuzzy words and continue to drill down and, here’s the key, not provide a solution one or two questions in. Okay?
That’s what salespeople do. I’ve got an opportunity, let’s pounce. No. You know, I like the old pull the gun out of the holster. No. Let’s get away from that. Let’s ask three or four, five or six or eight more questions. Ask the questions to the point where they say … This is a great way to wrap the whole questioning piece up. You know, one of the things advisors say when they have conversations and when they’re out doing social prospecting is they want to continue the conversation. There’s only one of three outcomes. You have a conversation and it goes nowhere. You have a conversation and you sense as the advisor/salesperson that it’s going somewhere and you ask the person you talk to, to keep the conversation going at a later date.
Here’s the third level and it’s the highest level and this is when you’re at your very best. Those of you listening, you can harken back right now to scenarios, think of some of your best clients and think of how this happens. Some of them might have even happen recently with new relationships where you were asking enough questions, you were hitting on enough areas of concern, creating enough insight that the person you were talking to said, Steve and Julie, how can we continue this conversation? Can I come by your office some time and meet with you? Folks, if you start that way and you continue your relationships that way, referability will be … you’ll have to shut down your practice to everything but quality referrals from your best clients.
Julie:
I just love that as a wrap up because it’s so true. Just even as you’re speaking, I’m thinking about the fact that we always talk about creating content that is shareable and so on, but the reality is when I’m out to dinner with my friends, I would share great questions, right, I share great conversations. I can see that happening just as much from this. Those are wonderful insights. You know, we could continue all day, frankly. This is fascinating. It’s been such a …
Steve:
We’ll probably stop the recording and keep continuing this all.
Julie:
Yes. Can we continue this conversation? Sorry.
Dave:
Anytime.
Julie:
Look at that. Thank you so much for your time. Really do appreciate it.
Dave:
Likewise. Enjoyed it.
Steve:
Thanks, Dave. Hey, folks. Steve again. Thanks for joining us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It really helps. You can get all the links, show notes, and other tidbits from these episodes at BecomingReferable.com. You can also get our free report, Three Referral Myths that Limit Your Growth, and connect with our blogs and other resources. Until next time, so long.