Participants:
Steve Wershing
Julie Littlechild
Paul Kingsman
Steve:
Welcome to “Becoming Referable”, the podcast that shows you how to become the kind of advisor people can’t stop talking about. I’m Steve Wershing. On this episode, we talk with Paul Kingsman, Olympic medalist, turned advisor, turned coach, and author of “The Distraction-Proof Advisor”. As advisors and business owners, there are so many things we have to pay attention to day by day, and there are so many things that can take us off course, and keep us from building the kind of business we want to have. Paul talks with us about how to focus on the right kinds of goals, to keep us moving to where we want to go. We talk about how to focus on relationships, and not get distracted by things that can be automated or delegated.
We talk about what kind of distractions can take you off course, like accepting clients outside your target market. We talk about the importance of systems and structure, for keeping you on course. And Paul has an interesting way of talking about minimum fee, rather than minimum account size, to help people refer to you the right kinds of clients. If you’ve been a listener for a while, you know that I’m not a fan of asking for referrals, but Paul gives us a conversation you can have with clients, to help stimulate that referral activity. If you’ve ever caught yourself investing time in something that did not keep you on course to building the kind of business you want to have, you’ll find value in this conversation, so let’s get to it. Here now, is our conversation with Paul Kingsman.
So, Paul Kingsman, welcome to the Becoming Referable podcast. Thanks for joining us.
Paul:
Thank you, it’s a pleasure to be here, Stephen, and Julie.
Julie:
Great to have you.
Steve:
So for those folks who don’t know you yet, Paul, your work draws on your experience as an athlete, that culminated in an Olympic medal. Can you give us a little of that background?
Paul:
Sure. So I started swimming when I was eight years old, and couldn’t really swim too well. I always loved the water, but when I was nine, I saw the Montreal, the 1976 Montreal Olympics, which I know dates me a lot, I just turned 50, but when I was nine I saw those Olympics, and for me, that was the thing that just got me so passionate to keep swimming, and to be a part of that experience. Not that I’m saying you need that longer-term objective at nine, if you haven’t got it by nine it’s too late, but for me personally, when I saw that visual at the Olympic games that was it. And so had a family, a very supportive family, who kept me involved with swimming, had a phenomenal swimming coach, and we spent 15 years together. And so that culminated right through into going to the 1984 Olympics in LA, and then the 1988 Olympics in South Korea, where I won a bronze medal in the men’s 200 meters backstroke, for New Zealand.
Julie:
That’s so awesome. So, I think the obvious question, then, is how you went from there to financial advisor, to what you’re doing today. So maybe you could help us understand that path.
Paul:
Sure. So, I got married once I retired from swimming in 1990. We moved back to New Zealand, my wife and I. My wife was from northern California, who I met when I was at Cal on a swimming scholarship, at Cal Berkeley, and her mom, in 1997, had a career shift, and started at Morgan Stanley. And so, my wife was an only child, so each phone conversation, we’d often hear about things in this industry. And my mother-in-law was a little bit ahead of her time, because she really focused on financial planning. And this was back, remember the late 90s, and planning wasn’t at the forefront then. I think a lot of places were paying lip service to it. But we came back in 2001 with the idea of me going into partnership with her, at Morgan Stanley. I was actually in the second to last training class, in World Trade Center, in June/July, of ’01, and I quickly saw that amongst 380 advisors, while we learned about product, this is a large cap value manager, this is a small cap growth fund, this is a UIT, there was very little, as far as here’s how you stay focused for the long haul, here’s how you handle the rejections, here’s how you handle the silences, when those prospects tell you, of course I’ll call you back in a week, and never do.
And so, that really got me motivated to … I’ve always loved speaking, but it really showed me, hey, this is an industry where tenacity, where just perseverance, those approaches are required, and where, over the long haul, you need to stay focused, that really appealed. I loved motivating people, and now specifically financial advisors and financial professionals. So stayed in the industry for some time. I’ve been in and out of the industry as an advisor, so I know what advisors go through. I know what it feels like to sit across from the table of a prospect, of a client. So now I love encouraging those advisors out there.
Steve:
And so you made the bridge, then, from being a financial advisor, to coaching other advisors, and you’ve wrote a book, that I came out a year or so ago, called The Distraction-Proof Advisor. And much of that advice revolves around maintaining focus. So what caused you to want to branch off into helping other advisors with being distracted?
Paul:
A couple of things on it, Stephen. Firstly, when I saw the advisors who I was in that same class with, it was very similar to the athletes I saw, the younger swimmers I saw that I was swimming with, phenomenally talented. As a swimmer myself, I wasn’t a hugely gifted athlete. I’m only six foot. I’m not six foot six, I don’t have size 16 feet. I had to listen, and I had to persevere and do the work, and really train diligently. And I saw people with way more talent and ability than I ever had, but they struggled to stay focused. They struggled to be encouraged by making seemingly small steps. And so, I enjoy mentoring people, enthusing people, to keep going, to keep focused on those steps, each incremental step, no matter how small it might seem, the reality is, if it’s the next step to take, it’s the most important step to take.
And so, I was also blessed with great teams around me, and this is one of the things that got me into coaching. Often times, to start out with, people would ask me if I coached advisors, and I would just say, no, it’s simple, figure out where you’re at, figure out where you want to get to, and put in that process. But I really underestimated, and didn’t think through, just how fortunate I was to have so many supportive people around me, be it back at home, back in New Zealand with my parents, or with my coach, or when I came to the UC Berkeley team, with our swim team. So the environment around a person, I believe, is one of the key ingredients to really maximizing their potential that they have, so that’s why I love encouraging.
Julie:
Can you talk a little … sorry. So there’s a whole bunch of things in there I’d love to ask you about, but maybe just starting where you left off. When you talk about environment, you mean that in the broader context of anyone reaching their goals, I assume, so what about the environment have you noticed, and what can take people off course?
Paul:
Yeah, so the environment is hugely important. It’s one of the biggest pieces of this puzzle. Back in the olden days, where literally you had to have a soapbox to get your opinion across, only one person at a time had any chance of having their opinions expressed and heard. Now it’s completely flipped. Now anybody can have their own soapbox, and reach thousands and thousands of people.
Steve:
As evidenced by this podcast.
Paul:
Anybody listening, they’re making the right decision. But what’s happened now, is that there is a myriad of great ideas, and this is where we struggle. Because, as an athlete, you couldn’t do everything. As an Olympic medalist, there are a number of different activities, maybe 15 or 20 different combinations of activities you could do, as an athlete. But when you have that timeline in place, i.e. for me, September the 22nd, 1988, for me, that narrows it down and distills it down to maybe four or five key aspects, that I’m going to look to master. Not necessarily perfect, but I’m going to look to master them. And I see the same challenges with advisors. Now, as an athlete, if I said these four things and these four things alone are going to get me that Olympic medal, by default, a fifth thing, no matter how effective it might look, by default, it’s now a distraction. And the advisors out there have so much information coming at them, that they’re really finding it hard. People these days, not just advisors, they struggle with saying, okay, while those might be good ideas, I need to let them go. I need to have these four or five key tenants within my business, or within my life, and really hone these four or five objectives and tasks.
Steve:
Can you give us a couple of examples of that? I’m trying to figure out how … I’ve got a few ideas how that could apply to the advisor situation, but tell us more specifically how that applies to the financial advisor.
Paul:
Sure. So relative to building a business, for instance, if you’re saying … this is one of the aspects that I love about the referability, when I see 15 or 20 different ideas that people think will garner referrals. But as you know, from the book you’ve written, it’s sticking with a process, and adhering to these particular steps. So, for instance, as an advisor building a business, understanding firstly, I have to have my investment process down. Now, if I’m going to offer investments, I’ve got a choice to make. I can either get caught up in all the investment monitoring, or I can set model portfolios, let professionals do this, who do this 24/7, and focus more on the relationships that I need to build. And for instance, this is an area that the robo space will never take away.
Relative to portfolio construction, they’ll do that in a heartbeat, but an advisor who can let that go, and who can say, hey, it doesn’t matter if I try, I don’t want to try and bring alpha to a portfolio return, I want to focus on the relationship, I want to get to know the kids, I want to get to know the parents. These are the important things that I need to focus on, and really focus on doing that, and not get sucked into the traps of watching the market, of watching what’s happening out there, to the DOW and S&P every day. And then be comfortable when somebody says, what do you think the market’s going to do. Be comfortable saying, I have no idea.
The markets are going to do one of two things, they’re going to go up or down. That’s what we know. And instead, keep coming back to focus on the relationship with that person. Another aspect is putting in processes. For advisors who want to grow their businesses, the number of advisors I speak with to start with, who will ask, hey, do you have the processes in place for the most important facets of your business. It’s stuff that can seem a little tedious, but it just gets pushed to the next to do list. So it’s focusing on those things that really count. It’s learning, like you’ve said, learning how to ask for referrals in the appropriate way, and repeating that, and having faith that that will work.
Julie:
So I assume that the end goal, so if we look at your personal story, it was going to the Olympics. You had that clear goal, which dictated what you needed to do. Do you find that advisors have clear enough goals that should dictate? I assumed somebody who says, for example, I want to triple the size of my business in two years, that’s going to dictate one path, versus somebody who says, you know, I want to grow, but I want to work with particular types of clients, or perhaps I want more time with my family.
Paul:
Yeah, great, great point, especially about what is that person valuing. A lot of times people will be vague. For instance, let’s take an example we can at least relate to. I want to lose 20 pounds. Well, if somebody comes and says that, the first question would be, well, by when? And if you say, well, I want to lose 20 pounds by next Friday, because my sister-in-law is … or my sister’s getting married, at that stage it’s like, good luck, and that’s going to be unhealthy. And so, the timeline is critical, and so when somebody’s saying, hey, this is what I want to do, my first question is why. Why are you seeing that as so pivotal, as so critical, to where you see your life going. And I’m not looking at that as a right or wrong answer, I’m just interested to know the conviction that’s behind these aspirations.
Because often times, and you’ve probably bumped into it too, where an advisor will say, well, I want to increase by 10%, well why? Well, because Joe down the office did nine percent last year. That just doesn’t cut it. But you’ve got to be specific as well, like you mentioned. There’s specificity there, and I like having a to do by date. I personally relate to that. Now advisors immediately push back … someone will push back and say, well, there are so many unknowns that can happen, but to me, that’s just a lame excuse. Those things are going to happen anyway. You’ve got to have a default plan, a default structure in place, so that when you do get taken off track, there’s an immediate correlation back to where it is you said you wanted to end up. I’m sorry, go on, Steve.
Steve:
Yeah, I was going to say that the way you talk about the why is a lot like … it reminds me a lot of Julie’s work, with the absolute engagement, is getting in touch with that … the reason, what’s behind it. How do advisors keep that present to themselves, to keep them on track?
Paul:
So I think it comes … a big step is being able to vividly imagine the end result. What is this going to look like, and how is this going to feel? How is this going to feel when I have the ability to decide how I’ll spend my Thursdays or Fridays. For a long time in this industry, when I first started, you’d often hear these advisors talk about setting goals and objectives, so that way I can have Friday off, and I don’t have to come into the office. And that used to rub me the wrong way, because I used to think, I love doing what I’m doing as an advisor. It’s not necessarily that I want a three day weekend every weekend, but what I would like is the choice to say, hey, this Friday I don’t need to be there. I love what I do there, but I don’t need to be there, or this Friday I’m going to work from home instead, and we’re just going to work from 9:00 to 12:00.
So, coming back to the values then, how vividly can you imagine them, and then, based upon how vividly you can imagine them, and how disappointed will you be if you don’t get that, when you know you can. And this is … when advisors recognize, hey, I could totally have that, that’s a big piece. But then how frustrated will you be, if you know you could have that, but won’t get disciplined enough to go after it and really get it. Then it comes down to deciding, how badly do you want it, and we always, we had a saying at Cal, on the swim team. The saying was this: “When the gun goes, the garbage stops.” And what we meant by that was, you can talk about how great you’ll be, you can talk about how much you’re going to achieve. You can talk as long as you want, but when that gun goes, and that race starts, the truth is about to come out.
Steve:
So you talked about getting a real, a clear image of what you want in the end, and in The Distraction-Proof Advisor, you talk about having dream boards, as a way of visualizing the outcome. So I noticed that one of the illustrations that you have in the book, with your dream board, has a picture of the Marin County Jail. Can you fill us in on the reason for that to be there?
Julie:
Please, do tell.
Paul:
Fortunately it’s a goal I’ve never achieved. No, I will tell you what’s behind that. Since 2002, for the last 15 years, I was one of the chaplains going into the Marin County Jail. I was going into what was called special housing, which was for the most violent criminals, people awaiting sentencing for pretty serious crimes. And I would go in there relative to going there from a pastoral role. I would have my bible with me, and from a Christian perspective, but when a lot of people hear that, the first they think is, so you went in and preached messages. I got to tell you, one of the most rewarding things that came out of that, was listening, was listening to people. And again, very personally, many times I would come out of there so thankful for mom and dad, and so thankful getting back to my environment. You would see people with incredible talents, and incredible ability, but they didn’t have the right people coming alongside them, saying hey, don’t go that way, head this way, and just giving them that encouragement. So that is one of the aspects I loved, and now that I’ve moved to South Carolina, in several months’ time, I’d love to get back involved in doing that.
Julie:
And you encourage, I assume, advisors to create dream boards as well. It sounds like something that should be easy to do. One of the things I’ve noticed, and I’d love your perspective, is that there’s a group of people who find it very difficult to dream in that way, and to think beyond, perhaps, what their history has told them they should want.
Paul:
I would say, and I’m learning this more and more, that not everybody does this the same way. For me, I’m visual. I love a picture, I love it in 3D, and so then my challenge, or not so much challenge, but for lack of a better word challenge becomes okay. That’s what I want. I believe I have the talent to get there. It’s a God given ability that I’m going to go after, and employ it to get there, and away I go. Some people don’t think like that. However, I think it is important to be able to crystallize exactly what those marker points look like, I want to say end goal, but then somebody usually pushes back and says, well, but that’s … I could achieve that by the time I’m 60, but I want to go further than that. I would say there’s marker points in life, here’s what I want that … here’s what I’d love that to look like.
Now how desperately do I want it? Because once you have that picture in mind, then you’re going to be able to spot distractions that much faster. Because at that point, if I say, hey, I want to lose 10 pounds by December 25th, and I’m serious about it, now all of a sudden, I’m going to have a picture of what distractions look like. That donut is a distraction, and it’s going to cost me another hour on an elliptical trainer for nothing, and so you start to really hone in and become realistic about, okay, is that possible to do. And so, coming back to advisors, when I hear advisors say, I want to go from 50 million to 100 million, and my first response is, over what period of time. And they might say, four years, and at that stage it’s like, okay, that’s 12 and a half million a year, that we want to add in new assets. And we start breaking it down, and making it very tangible and relatable on a day to day basis. And this is where people struggle, it’s relating that longer term objective. I want to lose 10 pounds, sure, but so what’s this donut, it’s only Monday morning.
Julie:
Right.
Paul:
It’s making it relatable.
Steve:
So, how does niche roll into this, how does having a target market roll into this? So if someone says, I’m at 50 million and I want to go to 100 million, my understanding is that … in your book, you talk a lot about having a niche, and doing it in a particular way. How does that relate to that vision?
Paul:
So, we had a very clear process, and we like to call it a triple A process, and it was the assets, attitude, and advocacy. And we had a number of professionals around our business, geographically wise, but more important than assets was the attitude. We had some two million, three million dollar people, one of which we fired, but we had some people who we knew were not going to be a good fit for us attitude wise. Likewise, with assets, yes, we really … we prefer people over north of over half a million dollars, at that point. This is back in … way back in 2012, 2013, but if somebody came in with $400,000, or $300,000, but whose attitude was solely, absolutely we’re fine with two portfolio reviews a year, absolutely we’re fine with doing online reviews, and they were going to adhere to our system, we would then bring them on. So, relative to a niche, we’d like to think of our niche as the ideal clients that are going to be totally adhering to what we said. And then they, in turn, made great advocates, because we were very clear upon how we were going to help them, and then doubly clear on delivering what we did for them.
Steve:
And so, when you talk about having the right clients, because you talk about that being critical to being distraction-proof, then it sounds like the way you’re defining clients, the right clients, is clients who will buy into your process, and adhere to your processes. Is that…?
Paul:
That’s absolutely right.
Steve:
So it sounds like having a process you can communicate to those folks would be critical too, so that you can be sure that they’re actually buying into it.
Paul:
That’s a great point, and that’s often where … and I think every advisor has this type of story, where they have a regret. They knew, at that first meeting, they should not have brought that person on. But yes, we had a pretty clear way of defining how we worked, how we helped people. We were big advocates for financial planning, so even when people came with the initial questions of, do you people handle investments, how do you do that, we would … and we had set language. And it didn’t come out like it was learned, it was yes, we handle the investment management part of people’s portfolios and financial life, but more importantly, we want to know that we’re not wasting our time. The last thing we want to do is pore over financial statements, and allocate accordingly, where we don’t know everything about you. So now we prioritize the financial planning aspect of a person’s life, so that we know, no matter what decisions get made, it’s within a sensible, thoughtful process, to have you reaching your longer term objectives. And so, lot of financial planning…
Julie:
So do you find if … if someone has defined … I think Steve’s point is a good one, just having the process is obviously a starting point, so let’s assume for a moment that’s in place, and we know that it’s still tempting. When someone comes in, and they probably don’t fit in that process, is that part of what you’re defining as distraction as well, that tendency to either work with anyone, or perhaps just not have enough conviction about the process that you’ve got, that you’re comfortable saying absolutely not, I’m not going to move off this.
Paul:
Yes, and exactly how you framed it. It’s not having that conviction. At the same time, it’s thinking there are limited numbers of people out there, they’ve got a pulse, they’ve got seven zeroes at the end of that bank account, I need them. Instead of recognizing, no, there are more out there. If I’ve said, for instance, if we’ve said our ideal client is $500,000, and we’re looking for 20 of those clients within two years, then I’m looking for 10 of those clients a year, I’m looking for one a month. And so, then it becomes a fun, almost like a fun game. How quickly can I meet those people? So, when I see somebody else coming along, with that kind of money, but not wanting to do it my way, or our way, it becomes a lot easier to say, this is just not going to be a good fit. And this is one of the things that rubs me a little bit, and I’ll just share a little gripe about our industry. Many advisors call themselves professionals, and yet, if you went to a dentist, and said to a dentist, you know what, I’m going to come in, but I don’t want my teeth cleaned by her, I want it done by him, and I want this chair not in this room, but in that room, and by the way, I’ll be in at 12:00, good luck.
There’s no way you’re going to get back into that dental practice. And yet, advisors in our industry, and here’s another thing you have to keep in mind, that dentist has probably gone through another seven years, at least, of … it’s like a surgeon, of intense training. If anyone has reason to think, I’ll just wing it for this client, it’s a dentist, or a surgeon, or a pilot. Yet these are some of the professionals who adhere to a strict list, every single time. And on the flip side of advisors, who are dealing with people’s financial life, who may never have the chance to make up for a mistake, can become flippant, and get a little lax, on just kind of winging it, or doing what they want to do, every day, differently. And you’re right, you want to take pride in having a system, and having a structure, and following that.
Steve:
And so, Paul, let me drill into something that you’ve been talking about. You talk a lot about getting the right clients in, and it sounds to me, and this may be an over-simplification, that you’re looking for people who have a certain amount of net investible assets, and will buy into your system for doing it. But, at least in our culture, people tend not to talk about how much money they have in the bank, and so, what I find is, that defining your ideal client based on how much assets they have, makes it a lot harder for people to refer, because that’s not what they talk to their friends about, even when they’re at the country club. Is that … do you ever find that as a hang-up with referrals, or are there other ways that you help advisors define their target market, or how do you get around that?
Paul:
Yeah, that’s a great point, because that was sometimes the case for some of the referrals we received. So we had our book, we stratified our book, so we had A to D clients, and we had deliverables on each of those groups. Now we weren’t … obviously, when that prospect became a client, we’d learn, we’d start learning then, exactly what they did have. But more than not, even for our smaller clients, who really weren’t aware of the type … as you know, some of the top end of our book, and how large some the balances were, they would refer their friends, understandably, their social group. While we weren’t hugely encouraging of them to do that, again, if the friend was prepared to work and adhere to our process, we would more than not bring them on. The biggest difficulty is when you get somebody who’s a great client, refers somebody who, after you talk with them, you know this person is solely transactional, they’re just going to be watching the market every hour, this is not going to be a good fit, then we were going to be very helpful and suggest, hey, maybe you want to call Betterment, or maybe you want to take an online account at one of the other places.
Steve:
So let me refine that a little bit, then. So, you bring in somebody and he’s got a million dollars, and that’s exactly the kind of person that you want to refer. And since we don’t talk with each other about how much we have, that client refers somebody else, he’s got a great personality, you really like him, he totally trusts you, he totally buys into your process, and he’s got $50,000 to manage. What do you do?
Paul:
Right, so at that point, we would probably, depending on the relationship with the A client, if he was going to adhere … if they were going to adhere to exactly how we were running things, we would bring them on. And we bring them on with an understanding that, down the track, if we were going to grow that much, and bring another junior advisor on, they were going to be some of the first clients that were moved to that advisor. Having said that, the moment they crossed the line, the moment they had said, hey, we’re going to adhere to what you do, and didn’t, we would fire them. Now, here’s the flip side, and here’s the challenge we’re faced with today. Sometimes we refuse to bring them on, because we told them we have instituted a minimum fee. So our minimum fee at that stage was, I think around $5,000 annually. Now, for a $50,000 account, that’s a huge chunk, and we would tell them from a fiduciary perspective, we just can’t do this.
Steve:
Okay, so that’s how you weeded them out. What is that … so if you did bring on that person, just as an aside, doesn’t that just encourage the A client to refer more people just exactly like that?
Paul:
So we also tell the A client that. So when the person, and it’s a very sensitive subject, but we would let the A client know we’re happy to help out Donna in this particular instance, because it looks like she’s going to do everything we’ve asked of her. Typically, we’re more working with, because of the complexities that we have the depth to deal with, we’re more working with clients like yourself, and you’ve got to be very careful, because you can’t say, and not her, because it’s only 50 grand, because that’s confidential.
Steve:
Well, exactly, that’s what I’m trying to get at, is how do you work with that-
Paul:
That’s when we, if it was somebody that wasn’t going to be quite a good fit, we would mention the minimum fee, and from a fiduciary perspective it just … it’s just not going to be an appropriate fit for her and us.
Julie:
I also think, if you manage expectations up front, right, and let clients know that you’re happy to meet with anyone they refer, but that you may not be the right advisor for all of them, and you’ll help them find a solution that works, they may not care, at that point. So you’ve made that commitment, you’re right Steve, to meeting with them, but probably they don’t care if you work with them, they just want them to get an answer.
Paul:
Yeah, and that’s where the referral language of saying, if you have friends or family who have questions or concerns about retirement, about social security, whatever the third one may be, I’ll be happy to answer any questions for five or 10 minutes on a phone call. I don’t promise I’ll bring them on as a client, because it’s got to be a great fit, but I’m more than happy, if they’ve got some questions or concerns, five or 10 minutes on a phone call, I’m more than happy to do that. Because, as I’ve said before, on stage, if it’s Uncle Larry wanting to flip GoPro stock, I’m not your guy, but I’m happy to spend five, 10 … that way, at least, you’ve put yourself out there as trying to accommodate.
Steve:
Sure, okay. So, one of the … well, there are a few other things that you say in the book about avoiding distractions and things, but I’m looking at the clock, and I don’t want to go too far over our time. So we probably should just end it at that, and I would suggest everybody get your book, and take a look through it. There are some really good things in there about knowing what the crucial things are to get done, and not underestimating the effect of the small things, and a lot of stuff that I’d love to continue talking with you about, but if people want to find out more about what you can do for them, what would you recommend they do?
Paul:
If they want to go to my website, it’s just paulkingsman.com, or they can email me at paul@paulkingsman.com, and get in touch with me that way as well. I’m working, currently, on a project called “The High-Performance Advisor”, that’s down the track, so I don’t want to say too much more about that, because I’ve still got to figure some things out. But yeah, shoot me an email, and more than happy to help where I can. And reference that they’ve heard it with you Steven, and you Julie, and if they could reference, that would be great. And I’d love to help where I can.
Steve:
Well that’s great, yeah, Paul, so thank you so much for spending some time with us, and congratulations on your move to South Carolina, and good luck on your upcoming program. I can’t wait to hear about it when it’s released, and thanks for joining us on the podcast.
Julie:
Thanks.
Paul:
Thanks, been a pleasure. I look forward to talking to you both soon.
Julie:
Hi, it’s Julie again. It was great to have you with us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It really does help. You can get all the links, show notes, and other tidbits, from these episodes, at becomingreferable.com. You can also get our free report, “Three Referral Myths that Limit Your Growth”, and connect with our blogs and other resources. Thanks so much for joining us.