Participants:
Steve Wershing
Julie Littlechild
April Rudin
Julie Littlechild:
Welcome to another episode of Becoming Referable, the podcast that helps you be the kind of advisor people can’t stop talking about. I’m Julie Littlechild and this week Steve and I are speaking with April Rudin, the founder and president of marketing consultancy, the Rudin Group. April has a really interesting perspective and she focuses on the intersection of fintech, wealth and next gen clients which is really quite fascinating. We talk to April about the trends that are impacting how you need to market to high net worth clients and we do a deep dive on high net worth boomers and millennials. April brings a really interesting perspective on how you can build referral relationships with centers of influence, how to build trust and how to ensure that the fit is exactly right. And with that, let’s get right to the conversation with April.
Julie Littlechild:
April, welcome to the show. So happy to have you here today.
Steve Wershing:
Yeah, welcome April.
April Rudin:
Oh thanks. I’m really looking forward to this conversation so thanks for having me today.
Julie Littlechild:
Oh we’re excited. Just I’ve got so many questions for you but I thought it probably makes sense to just start with a little bit about the company and the work that you do. Just give us a little context for the conversation.
April Rudin:
Sure. Last month marked my tenth anniversary in business. I had the idea of taking a look at wealth, next gen and technology and the convergence of all of those areas. I looked around at financial services marketing and particularly wealth marketing and was really underwhelmed. There was largely undifferentiated website clichés. We put clients’ interests first, stock photos and so 10 years ago I set out about changing that. We offer full service marketing from branding and messaging architecture, content creation, digital social strategy and PR. Only financial services marketing, particularly wealth and wealth management. Working with advisors every single day.
Julie Littlechild:
It’s interesting because you’re talking about, I think you said wealth and next gen and technology which often we would need to have three separate conversations to cover all those topics typically. It sounds like you’re talking about how they come together. Am I getting that right? And the impact that that would have. Could you tell us a bit about that?
April Rudin:
Sure. That’s something I feel very passionately about. The idea is that 10 years ago it was obvious to me that there was a wealth transfer and I think probably everyone read about it but either underestimated it or didn’t think about it. Next geners, as the mother of two millennials, I could see that they were making decisions and behaving differently than previous generations with certain decisions. And then technology, having been in technology most of my life, I could see how that was really changing so many different businesses. And sort of the last bastion was wealth and wealth management. My idea was and I think we can see it much more clearly today than 10 years ago, that wealth management services were going to be disrupted. How they were bought and how they were sold would be really changing.
Julie Littlechild:
And so when you were coming in, you didn’t see those discussions happening. We would talk about how technology is going to make us more efficient for example and we’d talk about how do we market to older people. But obviously you saw some opportunity that perhaps some advisors weren’t seeing at that time. Is that fair?
April Rudin:
Yes, absolutely. I think it’s the whole idea of differentiation and really planners having a plan, a marketing plan and thinking about their businesses. I think that when I first started my business 10 years ago, most advisors were pretty much satisfied with their book of business. If you ask them, people would think that they had enough clients to sort of last. They were busy enough. They made enough money. Although certainly that’s a generalization but I think today, people realize that baby boomers are drawing down in their assets. Millennials and others who are entrepreneurs are creating new wealth. There are sort of niches out there with women and diversity and so many different things that can create opportunities for advisors to really bring on more clients and have more satisfied clients for longer periods of time.
Steve Wershing:
And so what are some of the main differences in marketing that baby boomer traditional audience that the advisors have gone to and marketing toward those younger high net worth clients?
April Rudin:
I think that the main difference comes into play is the impact that millennials have had. I’m a proponent of segmented marketing but not to the point where you over segment. What I don’t think really works is marketing that’s so targeted, Steve that you almost call it, here’s our offering for millennials versus here’s our offering for boomers. Because that gets to point of really isolating it and being ridiculous.
I am a fan however, for a sort of a one size doesn’t fit all marketing. Meaning that advisors who offer more than one entry point are really more successful. That’s a roundabout way of saying that millennials have probably driven to a large extent, people moving away from opaque investments, undifferentiated marketing clichés, lack of personalization and have driven that sort of trend. I think that has been the driver and the more open and transparent with fees, with benefits and moving away from clichés and stock photos and things that are undifferentiated, the more successful advisors can be.
Julie Littlechild:
I’ve heard a lot of people comment just recently on the fact that boomers have been a bit lost in marketing. That we’ve had this conversation of focusing on millennials which is important but there’s still this middle group that we might need to focus on. Do you think that’s true? Is that what you see?
April Rudin:
Absolutely. I wouldn’t exclude any group. Including one doesn’t mean that you have to exclude others. I think that’s the idea of having multiple entry points and multiple offerings that allow people whoever they are, to access your services. Yes, gen X is often called the forgotten generation. There certainly are high earners and have assets in the aggregate. Sometimes more than millennials although we can’t, people are sometimes are quick to dismiss millennials but they are the most entrepreneurial group that we’ve ever had in any generation. Even though they have the highest debt, they also have the highest earning potential and you can hold onto those clients for a long time.
Pre-retirement of course is probably the group that many advisors focus in on without calling them that. I just want to caution that even though I think in segments I think you don’t want to market explicitly in segments. In other words, if you’re an advisor focusing in on women, it’s not wise to have a pink website with flowers on it. Those are some of the mistakes that people make by over segmenting an offering.
Julie Littlechild:
Can I just ask you to clarify, you’re using the term multiple entry points. Do you mean entry points in the life of the client? Or do you mean something, have I picked that up correctly?
April Rudin:
What I mean by that is really in terms of your messaging. Website copy, elevator pitch, social media, brochures, one pager, events, whatever types of marketing advisors are doing, they should be offering multiple entry points. Meaning that they have a lot of different ways that they can engage with clients. If somebody is at a different life stage, they can still be a client. They’re not excluded. You can offer different entry points. Maybe you’re specializing in preretirement planning but it doesn’t mean that it’s to the exclusion of boomers or to the exclusion of millennials. I like to see messaging that’s really inclusive. That talks more about how advisors solve problems rather than who they’re trying to attract.
Steve Wershing:
Help me understand this a little bit. You’re talking about having differentiators. Having some specialties or some special things to offer specific markets but not necessarily tailoring your message to that market because you think it would make them overspecialized? Am I getting that right? And if that’s the case, how do you balance those two?
April Rudin:
That’s a great question. I think that’s really the balance that advisors need to strike. In other words, you don’t want to have an offering that says something like, “Hey millennials, come over here. We understand you. Hey women, we understand you.” But it’s through language and messaging and the offerings. Sometimes the images and the pitch that you really attract the kind of clients that are best suited for you. That’s why I always encourage advisors to think about their value props, think about what it is that they offer and by putting out something that’s really authentic to them, they will naturally attract the kinds of clients that are probably a better fit for them personally. And then a better fit for them professionally as well.
I find that it can be stilted. People are thinking, oh women, what a great market and they put up a pink website and think about hiring a female advisor and making all sorts of overt type activities and that doesn’t necessarily attract women. In fact, it might turn some women off, right?
Steve Wershing:
Well yeah, so let’s get beyond that superficial stuff that’s obviously insulting like having a pink website, but there are advisors out there who’ve said, women are different in certain ways and we have tailored our process so that for women it seems to work better. They are very explicit about their messaging. You’re saying that’s kind of a bad idea.
April Rudin:
Well I think it might be attractive to some women but for other women, they don’t want to be targeting in such an explicit way. We all know that men and women are different but also all women are not the same. Segmenting all women as a practice group might or might not work. Some women and some men could be more similar than thinking about all women as being the same. Think about the women in your life Steve including Julie and wife, is everyone the same?
Julie Littlechild:
I hope not because that would mean I was married to Steve and it would be weird.
Steve Wershing:
Exactly. And my wife gets so rattled when I wake up and say, “Good morning Julie.” I get your point that sex is not a target market because it is too broad. But I’m thinking to Evelyn Zohlen who was one of our prior guests and one of the more powerful things I think she said and I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m looking for clarification. She’s very specific about women in transition and three specific transitions that she specializes in and it puts her in a position of being able to go to centers of influence for example, and saying, “Listen, we don’t want all your clients. But if you’ve got a woman who’s in this situation, we’re your firm.” And I think that it’s a hugely powerful statement and it’s also generated some really good business results for her. I’m trying to figure out, when an advisor’s looking on what message do they want to send out, how do they achieve the kind of balance that you’re advocating in having a somewhat customized process but not excluding other people?
April Rudin:
I think in the example you gave, one of the things that works really well is the idea on becoming referable and going to a center of influence. I think one of the things that advisors sometimes do poorly is go to center of influence or people who can refer them clients and simply ask for clients without being explicit at that inflection point what types of clients are a good fit for their practice. Certainly people have the right skillset to be able to service different segments and I think that’s great and they should focus in on those. And I think it’s especially important in the example that you gave, of being able to communicate that to center of influence because you need a specific skillset for certain segments like the one that you mentioned.
I think that’s where it works really, really well. People can have more than one website or more than one sell sheet and market to many different audiences and see, I think that’s what really works best. Particularly with high net worth. Advisors will come to me and say, “I want to be a family office,” or, “I want to work with high net worth clients,” without having the skills and experience. It’s aspirational for them but they don’t really have anything to back them up. That’s quite a different situation.
Julie Littlechild:
I’d love to dig into the center of influence area little because it’s such an important part of referrals obviously and we often focus so much on client referrals and yet certainly I see huge opportunity. Equally I see a lot of advisors saying, “I’m challenged in this area. I find it hard to be successful in this area.” Can you talk a little bit about the role you see centers of influence playing with high net worth clients and maybe what you’re seeing as being really effective in nurturing those relationships?
April Rudin:
Sure. I would say this is one of my also favorite areas or passions really in helping advisors and something I think is really important in getting it right. To your point, we all know it’s a relationship business and referrals are important but centers of influence can be referrals of multiples rather than end clients even referring one or two clients, perhaps over their lifetime.
The other thing about understanding centers of influence is finding a referral or having someone referred can be opportunistic. You might meet a person but they’re not in the market for an advisor but a center of influence, a CPA, an attorney or someone like that, insurance agent, can be understanding someone’s lifecycle and knowing more about why they might need to add an advisor. They were also a trained financial services professional so they’re better at assessing who could be potentially a good referral for our particular practice also.
For all of those reasons, the multiples, the understanding of the business, the timing aspect and then high net worth as you asked about, understanding more about what the needs are of the client in a broad brush and being able to communicate that, all make center of influence marketing to me, one of the most effective tools that advisors can have and should be on everyone’s list for 2019. Not to the extent again that you’re not marketing or being visible to end investors obviously. But in terms of your spend, in time and energy and money I think that smart advisors are taking a look at how to attract and become more visible in a B to B rather than a B to C marketing.
Steve Wershing:
What would you suggest be maybe some of the top couple things on that to do list when it comes to developing that COI aspect of the marketing plan?
April Rudin:
I think having a COI marketing plan is just that. It’s number one, having a plan. Having regular activities that can be events, webinars, conversations, a newsletter, a podcast such as this one. Something that is designed to create some stickiness and good relationships with centers of influence and be in front of them all the time is really the key because they’re the ones juggling all their different clients and so out of sight, out of mind but in sight, in mind. Having regular activities and planners really having a specific plan more than just sort of tipping the hat and acknowledging centers of influence can be good referrers, having actual activities and even developing marketing materials developed as such.
Julie Littlechild:
One of the things I’ve wondered about as I’ve chatted with advisors who say they’re struggling with this particular strategy is, do we too often see it as I’m out there pitching centers of influence on working with me? Doesn’t matter who they are. Doesn’t matter if they’re right for my business or if our clients are the same but I feel like I’m pitching and it’s going nowhere. Whereas it strikes me that you need to choose your centers of influence in the same way you choose your clients. Who’s right for you? Do you interview them? It’s a partnership. Any thoughts on making sure you’ve got the right centers of influence?
April Rudin:
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more Julie. Having everything line up in your practice and in your referrals is super key. Understanding, going to meet with people or spending your time and it shouldn’t be so much of a pitch. Let me just talk about that for a minute. I think if you are finding that you need to “sell” yourself or pitch yourself too much to a center of influence, I don’t think that they’re going to be a good source of referrals. However, I think it’s developing the relationships with people who are a good fit. Even asking clients who they work with and meeting people that way might be a better way to find a better fit to your point. Rather than just sort of cold calling who might have the largest, trust and estates practice in my city and then trying to meet with them.
If there is no line up between the advisor and the practice that they are trying to link themselves to then it’s just not going to work and they won’t get referrals.
Julie Littlechild:
I often wonder if we start from the place of center of influence strategy, actually being a client engagement strategy. When you think about, it’s building a network of people around you who can support your clients but then choosing the right people who will also provide referrals, then it is less about a pitch and I agree. It shouldn’t be a pitch. It’s something that you want to do for your clients.
April Rudin:
Exactly, it shouldn’t be a pitch. I think that that exact framing, it is an engagement process and an ongoing engagement process and that’s why I suggest even creating a plan for that. I’ve worked with advisors that have created a newsletter for example, that can curate content from attorneys of all different sorts and CPAs and new tax laws so you have really sort of high level content that you’re putting out. And all of that is just going in your B to B network rather than your B to C network.
You can stage events or host dinners. All sorts of ways of engagement that people know about but just having it be in the B to B area rather than the B to C area creates some camaraderie, engagement to your point, community and encourages and nurtures leads that can be multiples rather than the singles and I think that’s what makes it such an important activity.
Julie Littlechild:
What do you think gets in the way for advisors? If they were to think tomorrow, I really want to get this right. I want to identify a few key centers of influence and get it right. What’s the start doing and stop doing perhaps in this area?
April Rudin:
I think the start doing would be to start with their most satisfied clients and get some names of professionals that they’re working with. I think that can be a great start because if they have a good relationship with that client, chances are that the other centers of influence, other people that they’re working with could be a good source. I think LinkedIn can be a good source also but you need to use it gingerly and make sure that you are linking in, connecting with people where you can really truly add value. That could be a start and stop activity there.
Again, just thinking about it, in center of influence marketing and in high net worth, it’s not really the quantity of people but really comes down to the quality of people that you’re working with.
Julie Littlechild:
Yeah, that makes sense.
Steve Wershing:
Interesting. Go ahead Julie. I’m sorry.
Julie Littlechild:
No, no. I’ve been absolutely monopolizing.
Steve Wershing:
No, I wanted to jump back to the different markets if we could. Because I think there’s still some important stuff to cover there. We’ve talked about marketing more specifically toward the gen Xers and the millennials and do you think that the differences in how you communicate with and how you attract those folks is informed mostly by their wealth or their age or something else? What goes into effectively reaching out to those folks more effectively? Those other generations besides the boomers more effectively?
April Rudin:
That’s a great question and I guess if we knew the exact secret sauce and the silver bullet, we wouldn’t need to become more referable. Everybody would know the answer to that. I think it’s some kind of mix of language, images, your positioning that really make you attractive to certain segments. I’ll say that. It’s not as if one advisor is going to be the boomer let’s say, advisor. Or millennials may not choose to work with millennials. I know for my own kids, I sent them to a financial advisor when they graduated college and my own millennial son said, “I don’t know why this advisor’s sending me to a robo-advisor because I don’t know anything about investing and I don’t want to work with anybody who just graduated college like I did. I want someone who will teach me.”
I think that you need to use a little bit of smarts when it comes to putting together your messaging and seeing what works. I think that you want to be as transparent as possible. I think that will attract more people. I think that you want to talk a little bit about your professional life and balance with your personal life. I think that will end up getting you clients that are a better fit for you and for your practice. People who talk about travel or passions or causes or things that are important to them, will end up attracting more like minded people rather than, and those could be in a segment or could be across segments.
Julie Littlechild:
Early on you mentioned that, I think in reference to millennials in particular, that they’re making decisions differently. And you just mentioned purpose and we hear a lot about the need to ensure that you reflect, have some purpose in order to attract these folks. Is there anything else about the decision making that you’re seeing that you think we really need to understand if we’re going to market effectively going forward?
April Rudin:
Another great question. Millennials tend to trust their peers more than they trust sort of ‘suits’. They know their parents may have burned in 2008. They have some distrust for the institution or the establishment so they may be asking their friends for referrals or asking their friends to weigh in on some of their money making decisions much more than other generations would where other people would not trust their friends but would strictly go to professionals.
I think that you can also trust on millennials but not exclusively millennials of course. A lot of us older people are very digital. They’re going to go to the internet. They’re going to research. It used to be in the olden days if I was coming up to Toronto, I might ask you where’s the best Chinese restaurant? And today I’m probably going to take a Google and a Yelp and take a look at that. I think that we’re going to see that advisors should recognize that that’s what’s going on and should have a digital footprint that also reflects them and have enough information about them online. They’re less likely to pick up the phone and call them as a boomer might be.
Julie Littlechild:
The last round of research that we did I noticed that just like you said, younger clients were actually referring more often and yet their overall satisfaction was slightly lower. I didn’t know whether to interpret that as they are actually less satisfied or if just as a generation they tend to rate things slightly lower. Which we see across different countries and whatnot. Or perhaps just they have different standards that are harder to meet. I don’t know if you have any thoughts on that.
April Rudin:
I think all of that’s true. I think they do rate people differently because they have different standards. If you think about it, to a boomer maybe showing up on time and dressed professionally could be important attributes where that could be meaningless to a millennial. They’re not going to be looking at those particular aspects. I think that they look at different things. I think they probably rate harder because particularly in the money area, they know what they know but they probably know what they don’t know. They might be more sensitive to that. But I think they also are more likely to be referrers because it’s more of a community activity and they share what they know with their friends. I think that’s a behavior to also be aware of. And that can actually cut both ways. If you make a mistake or do something wrong you know that that will also be communicated.
Julie Littlechild:
What do you say, for as long as I can remember, we’ve dealt with the issue where an advisor might look at their existing book of business today and say, “Look, 90% of my clients are almost retired, wealthy individuals. I know they have kids. I know that millennials are different but frankly I don’t want to think about too, too hard.” Are you seeing a shift in that? You’re talking about high net worth millennials, at the same time, are you not? It’s not as if these aren’t good prospects but there’s always been some pushback that we’ve seen.
April Rudin:
I think that’s really, that’s a great question because it really comes down to mindset. I think that the more open minded advisors know that all of these can’t be generalized just to go back to the point that I made when we opened the podcast. Certainly some millennials are high net worth. Some millennials are low net worth. But I think that understanding who your targets are that for example, maybe entrepreneurs are a target for you and that group can be made up of millennials, women, boomers. That is a whole host of different types of people but yet your expertise as an advisor in helping perhaps manage the sale of a business is really what comes into play. Managing a sudden wealth event. Those are the skills that come into play more than actually targeting the subgroups, if that makes sense.
Julie Littlechild:
Yeah, absolutely.
Steve Wershing:
Related to that April, you talked about the advisor who works with lots of high net worth investors who are maybe boomers and talking about the millennial high net worth folks and one of the questions that I hear a lot of from advisors is, how do we connect with that next generation? If you were talking with an advisor who dealt with high net worth boomers, what recommendations would you give her to connect with the next generation down from their clients?
April Rudin:
There are a couple of things. I think that the last statistics I read were pretty dismal. Something like 98% of wealth inheritors change advisors. Within high net worth there’s really a couple different types of high net worth which is the inheritors versus the creators. I think with inheritors it can be difficult. I know that my own kids, I don’t know about you guys, but my own kids don’t necessarily want to follow my bend on anything I do. They want to make their own choices. You feel the same?
Julie Littlechild:
Mine’s nine, so if he wants to eat, he pretty much has to do what I say. But that’s different.
April Rudin:
He’s going to be a self serve soon. Trust me on that. He’s your self serve client. I think you don’t have to think too hard about that to know that that’s true. Right there is an important point for advisors to understand. On the flip side of that, if 98% or some out of proportion number of people are not going to be keeping their parents’ advisor, that creates a huge opportunity for advisors to just become visible in the market with their skillset in serving high net worth with a look and feel of their website and their marketing materials. With events that speak to passion and social causes. With things that all we know appeal to millennials or like minded clients. Rather than segmenting them into particular bucket. But I think doing all of those things will attract the right sorts of clients and I think advisors could spend too much time and again, I’m generalizing a little bit here, trying to hold onto clients that might be impossible for them to really keep.
Julie Littlechild:
Do you think just as we’re getting close to wrapping up, is there one place for an advisor to start thinking differently about how their marketing or perhaps even just one question they could ask themselves to move them in that direction?
April Rudin:
I think they could really ask others. I find a lot of advisors will only think about things from their own standpoint. They’ll take a look at their website and think that it looks good or it still looks good and people should be refreshing their marketing materials and rethinking about their positioning minimally, every two years because things change quickly and people get tired of that. I think it’s important to get an outside opinion. I think it’s important to have revenue generating activities and that involves creating a budget for things like marketing which I know some advisors are reluctant to think about or to spend. Your brand and the way your public facing persona looks are going to be the most important things that will be either a turn on or a turn off to your future clients.
I’m not sure I exactly answered that question.
Julie Littlechild:
No, I think that’s perfect because sometimes knowing where to start is half the battle here. To me that’s just a really great specific action that somebody could take. Just reach out to somebody that you trust, whether it’s a colleague or a consultant or your spouse or somebody who will give you an honest opinion. Appreciate that. Thank you so much.
If advisors are looking for more information on you or your company, where can they find you?
April Rudin:
They can find me at www.therudingroup.com. They can find me on Twitter @therudingroup and some of my other social properties and that’s probably the best way to reach me.
Julie Littlechild:
Perfect.
Steve Wershing:
And that’s Rudin, R-U-D-I-N.
April Rudin:
Yes. Thank you. It’s R-U-D-I-N.
Julie Littlechild:
Perfect. Well thank you so much. It’s been a great conversation. Really appreciate you being here.
Steve Wershing:
Thanks April.
April Rudin:
Thank you. I hope it’s helpful for some advisors and I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.
Julie Littlechild:
Take care.
Steve Wershing:
Hey folks, Steve again. Thanks for joining us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It really helps. You can get all the links, show notes and other tidbits from these episodes at becomingreferable.com. You can also get our free report, Three Referral Myths that Limit Your Growth and connect with our blogs and other resources. Until next time, so long.