Participants:
Steve Wershing
Julie Littlechild
Sheryl Garrett
Steve Wershing:
Welcome to becoming referable, the podcast that shows you how to become the kind of advisor people can’t stop talking about. I’m Steve Wershing. On this episode, we talk with Sheryl Garrett, founder of the Garrett Planning Network and 2019 recipient of the Investment News icon award. Starting as a registered representative, Sheryl learned the ropes doing planning for a more senior advisor. She left to become a partner in a fee planning practice.
Over time, the sophisticated planning they provided cost more and more and Sheryl felt more and more strongly that the average people deserved planning too. More than that, the right advice to a middle-income client at the right time could have a much bigger effect on the client’s life than the best advice they could provide their wealthier clients. She established Garrett Investment Advisors, offering planning on an hourly basis. It was almost immediately a hit. We discuss the public relations and referral opportunities she found through that business model, and then we talk about her teaching that model to other advisors through the Garrett Planning Network. We discuss how an hourly fee model can help differentiate you from other advisors. And she tells the story of how fighting for the middle class client and the fiduciary standard got her a shout out from the president of the United States. So let’s get right to our interview with Sheryl Garrett. Sheryl Garrett, welcome to the becoming referable podcast. Thanks for joining us.
Sheryl Garrett:
I’m delighted to be here.
Steve Wershing:
I cannot resist this. I mean, you are the first person that at least I’ve spoken to who’s actually got a shout out from a US president. I’m sure most of our listeners have read the story, in the trades but can you tell us a little bit about that experience?
Sheryl Garrett:
Oh my lord, it’s still surreal. The beginning of it probably happened because I got involved with litigation work and expert witness testimony using my CFP background and my background as a financial planner, to work on behalf of individuals who allegedly received bad advice from their advisor. That activity plus I’m also one of the founding members of the Committee for the Fiduciary Standard, enabled me to start telling those stories of some of the cases that I worked on in a large series of lawsuits in California, where the advisor had basically talked individuals into taking early retirement and investing their money in a high cost vehicle with little flexibility. And those stories were just horrendous. People retiring in their late forties, early fifties and 10 or 12 years later they’re broke.
These are life devastating kind of situations. And so, never really got a lot of exposure with the media on telling these stories. But I did find a great ear in the Department of Education and the Department of Labor, wanting to hear from practitioners, financial planners, who had worked with advisors or clients or prospective clients or knew of situations where we truly had financial abuse. During the regulatory discussion of fiduciary, whether it was through the FCC or the Department of Labor. We continually heard by the folks who were arguing against fiduciary for all advisors saying that, where’s the dead bodies? I don’t see any blood history.
I was trying to express the stories of individuals that their stories had never been heard or told. And before I got involved in this work in about ‘05, I didn’t really fully know the underbelly of the business and I’m sure I still haven’t seen it. But my Lord it sure shook my foundation to the core to think people can knowingly do this kind of harm to someone, and it’s so easy, unfortunately to do. And it’s a huge passion of mine. And I started talking to a lot of people, policy makers, through the committee for the fiduciary standard. We got a seat at the table when these proposals for creating a fiduciary for all advisors, that kind of a working document, and rules and regulations, what would those look like? Those principles. And after a number of years, the DOL came out with their second, the revised DOL fiduciary standard and hence, the president, jumping on board. Well, what happened and why I got the shout out.
Well I guess I don’t really know why I got a shout out particularly, other than telling these stories about these victims of financial abuse or the faces of financial abuse and meeting Phyllis Borzi, the assistant secretary at that time. And telling many people about these stories, bringing some of them to DC to testify, and participate in the hearings and let them know what other financial advisors had seen.
So I contacted an extended network of financial advisors and ask them to submit stories to me that they had either run into or clients they had worked with that had become victims of financial abuse. I collected a lot of these stories and I shared them. And I was getting interviewed by people at the Department of Labor to help make their case on why the roll over concept needs to be part of the rules. Where did the money come from? It does matter when you make a recommendation! They take money out of a divine benefit plan or to mortgage your house and put it into this investment.
Steve Wershing:
Right. Sure.
Sheryl Garrett:
It matters. And there is no regulation that covers that right now. I, in stressing these stories from the individuals, ended up on the phone with a speech writer of President Obama’s.
Steve Wershing:
That’s awesome.
Sheryl Garrett:
And I spoke to her for about an hour telling the stories and it felt very much like speaking with the folks at the Department of Labor or a journalist, or yourselves. Just what happened, what happened next, how did that happen? And I share that story.
And about a week later, I got a call from one of the people I had been speaking with at the Department of Labor. I hadn’t really registered that the call the week before was from someone at the White House. I didn’t really think it mattered. So I get a call from somebody at the Department of Labor on a Friday in February, and she said, “Sheryl, is there any chance you could be here on Monday?” And I looked out of my window, at the ice on the ground, and I said, “Yes,” And there’s no way to get from where I live to DC in a direct way. I was going to get there and did, and I had no idea what was going to happen. I was hoping that some of these victims’ stories would be picked up in some comment that President Obama would make. And I was going to get on YouTube and try to pull up copies or recordings of his speeches and see if I could hear something about these victims. That’s what I was hoping for.
Steve Wershing:
Right. You got a whole lot more than that.
Sheryl Garrett:
Was my mind blown when he actually specifically quoted me.
Steve Wershing:
That’s very cool.
Sheryl Garrett:
It was surreal.
Steve Wershing:
Yeah. Well and, congratulations. Congratulations on that. That’s-
Sheryl Garrett:
Now four-year anniversary last Saturday and it feels like it just happened. It’s amazing.
Steve Wershing:
Congratulations for that. Congratulations on that. And also, congratulations on your icons and innovators’ award.
Sheryl Garrett:
Thank you.
Steve Wershing:
Very excited to see you get that. And then a lot of that comes from your work, really developing the idea of hourly fee planning as a proposition so that middle income folks can access competent planning as well. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey to developing that hourly philosophy?
Sheryl Garrett:
Sure. I started as a registered representative for one of the large financial services companies when I was 24 years old. Had no background in college or anything like that. I was a registered rep and I wasn’t the type that makes cold calls. Didn’t know that was part of the job at the time. This was in the 80s. And, in other words, I was miserable at it. I went to work as an assistant planner to a fee only advisor. Kind of worked myself out of a job, as my skills increased and I had attained my CFP designation by that time. And then I worked for a hybrid planning firm, and I had been in the business between say five to eight years by that point. And I was starting to get a little bit comfortable with actually client contact, five to eight years into the business.
Oh yes. My initial experience, with, it was IDS, the predecessor to Ameriprise, was so impactful on my life that I didn’t want to have any front line exposure to clients. I was scared of it. I didn’t want to have that. And about eight and a half years of being afraid of being the front line with clients, it tends to shock people quite a bit when they hear that and it’s the honest to God truth. Then, I got to the point, at eight and a half years in the business, I got to the point where I was doing say 90, 95% of my boss’ job as far as creating a financial plan, creating the recommendations, but he would present it to the client, and he had the interaction with the client. But I was actually doing the analytical work and coming up with the recommendations for the most part. And over a period of three or four years more and more.
And I started thinking, well, okay, I won’t go into those details. But-
Steve Wershing:
Yeah, right.
Sheryl Garrett:
I was making a third of what he was making, and he was one of the junior bosses. I knew I was being … there was more opportunity out there for me and I needed to either approach that company for, “Can I do something other than the role that you really love me in?” Because they had two of us in a position that it was really perfect for the firm or for them. And not perfect for the two of us, and, she ended up becoming a partner.
Sheryl Garrett:
I ended up moving on and I joined a very young but very rapidly accelerating bursting at the seams fee-only wealth management practice, as an equal partner. And I spent another three and a half years with my partner, Kathleen Step, in the Kansas City area, all of my background is in the Kansas City area working with clients. And working with Kathy Step was a great experience for me. She had, has, a great level of confidence. She wasn’t at all afraid of pitching a substantial project to a client and a substantial fee to go along with that and not fall off her chair, which I needed… Because it’s like, “Oh my God, if they sign this, we can do payroll.”
Steve Wershing:
And what was her model? Was it a fee for project or was it AUM or how did she bill?
Sheryl Garrett:
What is the word I’m looking for, in a complex way. It was a combination of earned income and assets under management, tiering down for three years and then leveling off. It actually took a worksheet to calculate somebody’s fee for the first year and then the next year and based on the numbers today, this year, next year and next year and then subsequent. She almost needed to plot it out for four years to kind of get an idea of, “What would my fee be?” Because the first couple of years could be super big.
But we were one of the few options for a fee only financial planner in the Kansas City market at that time. And Kathy had built a reputation and we were starting to get a lot of phone calls and basically the phone was ringing off the hook kind of thing. And a lot of people wanted our services, but at the time I joined her, her minimum was $2,500 a year. By the time I left, it was $4,000. Shortly thereafter it became $10,000. And that was not uncommon for the type of services we were providing. I think that this really holistic, very deep dive, full service wealth management firm and the services they provide are appropriate for a minute part of the population.
And I come from a very middle class, middle America background. My father grew up very very poor. And his mother’s lessons are some of the most important lessons that I still subscribe to today, and working for very wealthy people when I knew they had other options. Even though there weren’t lots of financial planners, fee-only financial planners in the area. And we were getting lots of calls. There was still underserved. People with limited assets had no options for an objective fiduciary advisor. And I just had to do it and I got to the point my business partner, as I mentioned, she was very strong. Strong in a way that was good for me, but also strong in a way that caused me to say, all right, it’s time to jump out of the nest.
You can fly Sheryl, try. And I told myself if I can make a couple thousand dollars a month, I can build from there. I was really keeping it low and, and trying to keep my expectations reasonable. And my cost very modest and I just put together the concept of how would I want financial advice if I were a consumer.
Julie Littlechild:
Sheryl did that kind of process really … Were you clear at that point that if you could deliver something to a different type of client on an hourly basis, that that would be a real differentiator for you. Could you see that and see how that might also work for other advisors?
Sheryl Garrett:
I think subliminally, Julie, I was thinking about, that it would be different and unique, but actually it was much more selfish than that. I wanted to be able to not say no to a person calling on the other end of the line and saying something like we’ve been turned down by so many other advisors and we only have $435,000 to work with. And if you could at least call me back and tell me no. And I called the woman back and I said, I don’t care if you have $4 and 35 cents. I would be honored to work with you if I can help you.
And she started crying. It was so personal … It tugged at my heartstrings. These are the people, we hear it frequently, we can make a difference in wealthy people’s lives, but adding 10 basis points or adding whatever to a wealthy person’s bottom line will not change their life. But if you are able to make some adjustments in a young person’s life when they’re just starting out, or a middle income person, and I’m not talking about necessarily statistically or, officially middle income, but those who identify with being middle income, which is actually the majority of Americans. They don’t need or want to pay for a full time financial advisor, yet they have questions about their money all the time.
When I ask myself, how would I want financial advice to be rendered to me? And actually, an estate planning elder care specialist friend of mine, colleague, suggested that I read the book, The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber. And that concretized the whole concept of figuring out what my primary aim and I spent time in a meadow per my friend’s suggestion with this book and worked out what eventually … and it actually has not deviated hardly at all in over 20 years to help make competent, objective advice accessible to all people.
Steve Wershing:
And so how does that sound when a member of The Garrett Planning Network talks about what they do and what they do for people? How does that come out? How does that sound when they describe it?
Sheryl Garrett:
That is actually our slogan for The Garrett planning Network. And one of the things that I am very proud about is being able to provide that accessibility. Because what Kathy and I couldn’t do and her firm, she taught me a lot, but I also learned that what I needed and wanted out of this profession was to be able to make a difference in lives of people more like me and more like those I grew up with. And, I got a lot of psychic benefit out of working with those … with members of the Garrett planning network. A lot of people heard my story. I was presenting at the last Institute of Certified Financial Planners Conference in July of 1999, talking about financial planning. What do I do as a CFP? What does my day look like, to a group of newly minted financial planners and CFP students and brand new CFPs and they could relate to how I was working with clients and they could see themselves doing that work very soon.
Whereas some of the other panelists on this, a panel of five practitioners, it was either a role that there are extremely few of them across the country or they don’t really want to be in a sales role and they want to be a consultant, a trusted advisor. And so, very naturally, I think, many people resonate with the ability to truly and significantly impact the quality of somebody’s life.
Julie Littlechild:
This is such a significant leak as a model, right? For many and unique in this industry. And I know a lot of the questions certainly that I hear about A. Does the hourly fee model that you’ve put in place resonate more with clients? And then, how do you even figure out what that hourly fee is? And there’s some confusion around that, I think, for people who would like to take that leap.
Sheryl Garrett:
Yeah, I heard a lot of folks in the industry and still do, but fewer, when I was first sharing this idea of what I wanted to do, what I was planning to do, is offer my services to anyone who could pay my fee. And that I could deliver competent objective advice to as a fiduciary advisor. That doesn’t mean they can come in and hire me to answer one question. I mean, I still have to fulfill my fiduciary obligation. I have to understand my client. I have to get enough information to really do it. It’s not wham, bam, thank you, ma’am. One question answered. That’ll be three and a half dollars. Yeah, that would be a quick way to poverty.
Think about how, and this is what I did. I looked at other consulting professions in this country, and almost every single one of them have a component or exclusively charge for their time. We are in an industry that’s partially determined or defined by how we’re compensated, which is weird. I think it’s the only industry I can imagine that if part of the, how do you define or cluster providers is how they’re paid. How odd is that? And then, clients care about the quality of the advice, and can you help me where I am now? They are presuming and they have every right to presume that an advisor will put their best interests first as a fiduciary. That’s what clients expect and in my book that’s what they deserve. And to be able to fulfill that fiduciary obligation, I believe we need to be able to truly tailor our advice to the specific needs and concerns of the client at the time, in your professional opinion.
And so by charging for our time, I can expand it or contract it to fit in the specific needs of the project or the needs of the client, the questions of the client. And I find that very fulfilling. And still to a large degree, a lot of the public don’t know that they pay for financial advice or they pay for something. They pay for whatever you call it. And, now we do have the concept of it is very transparent, which actually I argue makes it more referable. In my former incarnation, in the wealth management practice, as I mentioned, it took a worksheet to determine somebody’s fee. Imagine! And we had clients say, I referred you to such and such, or we heard we were receiving referrals, but yet we almost never had clients that came via referral, but we had a lot of very happy clients! What’s the disconnect?
Well think about it. If you’re referring somebody to a service like the one we had, we’re making an assumption that somebody needs and wants a full time ongoing portfolio manager and financial advisor and they’re willing and able to pay $4,000 a year or more for this service. That’s quite an imagination or, and a lot of knowledge about the individual to be able to say, “Hey, yeah, you should call Kathy and Cheryl. They’d be perfect.” But when I switched to being able to answer one question or do a comprehensive financial plan or anything in between charging for my time, someone would say over the coffee or the water dispenser at work, and scene: Hey! We got those new options in our 401(k), I don’t know what to do. What do you think I ought to do, Bob, call Sheryl.
Steve Wershing:
And so what is the experience of-
Sheryl Garrett:
She charges by the hour. And so I got referrals from people I didn’t know. And that freaked me out. The first year, I started running into people who said, “Oh I heard about you from such and such and I’m racking my brain going, I don’t have clients!” And that happened over again.
Steve Wershing:
Is that similar to the experience of other people in the Garret network? I mean, is that a fairly common experience about getting referrals that you think can trace back to the way you charge fees?
Sheryl Garrett:
Yes, absolutely. Because we have a rule within the Garrett planning network that does two things. It helps the public, but it hinders the number of advisors that we have in our network. It’s not the most brilliant way to grow a giant network, Sheryl Garrett. But it is necessary in my book to be able to speak to the public and through the media or directly to the public or a prospective client and say, I provide competent objective advice accessible to all people. And, of course it is implied that there will be a fee. You have to be able to pay my rate. Tt’s not free. But it’s accessible. And, what we’ve found is that many people, they have that same philosophical desire to be able to make a difference in people’s lives that are the backbone of America, Main Street America, Middle America, whatever you want to call it.
We’re talking over 80% of the population and nobody’s there to serve them that’s not in a sales capacity for the most part. We have this immense opportunity and now as the word continues to go out, that the people that come to us, this is exactly what they’re looking for. We get calls and at headquarters now I want to find … I want an hourly only advisor in the network. Because I spent 11 years of my career kind of testing the waters. That’s the best way I could describe it. Bouncing around from things that I didn’t like and I really hated or partially loved. So I took, I felt it was all a learning experience and I have to say that I would do it all over again, exactly the same way because I would not have been able to develop the opinions and the viewpoints of what I have and what I embrace now so fervently if we hadn’t had been in litigation work or I hadn’t worked on a wealth management platform that when people call, really needing help and I had no one that I could refer them to.
Steve Wershing:
Sure. Can you give us a couple examples of some success stories and specifically from the perspective of how they differentiate, how they talk with clients and how it affects how referable they are. Can you give us a couple of examples of folks from the network and how that’s been successful for them?
Sheryl Garrett:
The concept of charging for time versus assets. That’s basically what we’re talking about. I just find that describing it as hourly or time based. Time based is kind of complicated versus asset base. I call it hourly. A couple of examples, very extreme examples of the type of work that we’re able to do. And it’s holistic financial planning, and we get paid for all of our work. That’s the important part because so many financial professionals don’t, They’re only able to get paid for the things that they can put a product into. And by charging for our exact time, we’re tailoring it to the unique needs. I’m going to tell you a story about a lower income, lower middle-income family or couple rather, that I met. And when I got a call from the wife and she was very upset that they were in the whole $300 a month and didn’t know what to do.
And we sat down for a get acquainted meeting. She had completed my questionnaire, and I looked at the questionnaire and very quickly, I … at that timeframe, interest rates on mortgages were probably six something, I don’t remember. And they had a 10 and a half percent rate. One could have very quickly said, “Mmh! Refinance your mortgage problem solved, you’re done.” However, I probed a little bit deeper and found out that there was a whole lot more going on, and a lot of baggage related to the house they had. And why in the world did they have a 10 and a half percent interest in the first place? It was owner financed 10 years before, they had terrible credit. They had personal baggage attached to this house, and they didn’t have nearly enough storage. The husband was spending another $300 a month to store his stuff off property, which he needed to go get every day.
Working together, their total fee was under $800, with 700 and something dollars. We met about three different times. They did most of the leg work. I can just provide the coaching and the motivation and the ideas, and sent them on their way to do these things. And what they ended up with was a new house on three acres. It was a manufactured home, 2200 square foot with an oversized, full basement and his garage and workshop on three acres. And they ended up cashflow ahead after this change in their dream home, heading into retirement with a virtually very, very low maintenance. And they came from a 700 square foot, somewhat dilapidated home. I find their story to be one of my most satisfying engagements. That I was able to take someone who was in dire tears of God how are we going to do this? It just looks like retirement will never ever happen. And there were in their late fifties-
Steve Wershing:
Interesting.
Sheryl Garrett:
… And all of a sudden just making a few tweaks by looking at what might be available. It changed their world. At least that aspect of it. Another couple-
Steve Wershing:
Well actually, Sheryl, if I can jump in, what I’d really like to share with our listeners, because our listeners are financial advisors themselves and so I would love to be able to highlight a few success stories of people in your network and how this particular approach to financial planning, has helped them develop a more successful business. Just like, what you found when you broke away from Kathy and started your own.
Sheryl Garrett:
Well, I’ve shared these stories with our members and our members share stories with the public and the media. And, it’s one of those things that once you tell the story, people start repeating it. When I first launched my practice on April 1st, April fool’s Day of 1998, I started getting press. I’d had a tiny, tiny bit of press before that. But once I went hourly, all of a sudden I was a story, and it was within weeks and within two years, less than two years, I could no longer take on new clients. I had to add professional staff. Within the first full year, actually it was 15 months at that last, ICFP conference, Bob Veres pulled me aside and said, how’s things going? I said, oh my God, amazing. I’m having the time of my life.
And he said, well, I can tell I’m watching all these people flock behind you wanting to know what you have to offer. And girl, I know you’re a capitalist, package it and sell it! He said six months, I’ll give you six months to do it. Because I told him I was thinking really hard about it and planning to do it. He said, I’ll give you six months. And I said one year and one year later we launched our first training class and that was in July of 2000. Bob Veres gave me a very helpful nudge, to basically tell me to quit giving it away and make it available.
And then someone else. And I regret not remembering this person, because I reflect on this comment so often. It was so powerful. He said, “Cheryl, if your primary aim in your vocation is to help make competent, objective advice accessible to all people, how can you do that working with the end user client?” You must work with the providers. Because if you’re working with how many? Four to 600 clients, how’s that changing the world as big as you want to. Imagine if you’re working with four to 600 advisors, and they’re each working with four to 600 clients. And I started going damn, once again, the obvious has been revealed.
Steve Wershing:
Exactly, exactly.
Sheryl Garrett:
And so the people that call on us are … They’ve read about it. They resonate with it. They go, oh my God, that’s what I wanted to do. I didn’t realize this existed. That’s what I heard from clients. That’s what I hear from financial advisors.
Julie Littlechild:
I was just going to ask from a tactical perspective, you were sort of mentioning the stories that you are able to tell, those success stories and how that is also a way for advisors to drive the growth in their business, because they repeat those. But it’s interesting to step back and look at that as a tactic here is like when you’re sharing these stories and through yourself, that seems to be what attracts people. And we talk to advisors a lot about storytelling. I mean, would you agree that they need to perhaps do more of that in order to drive referrals?
Sheryl Garrett:
Oh, Julie, absolutely. I think that to connect with another human being, by sharing a story, it’s the best way. And I do that a lot when I worked with clients. I do that with, I’m working with advisors and, they may be my personal stories of when I was working with a client or it’s a story that I have gained from talking to another advisor. And we all learn and share from each other.
People can relate to stories. We noticed that when we look at articles in the newspaper, in the Kansas City Star newspaper, which I got my first press exposure, and it was the most valuable for building my practice, was my local newspaper. And the most commonly read articles where the question and answers. People really like to hear the stories of other people, and when they do a money makeover or people would read those, and they cut them out. And I did a number of money makeovers and people would come in with a folder full of stories or articles, where I was part of money makeover or a question answer series or something like that. And without the ability to talk about how we can approach something and how it will work and what we can do, one of the areas that people often look at hourly advice is this will … We can make our services available to people who have very minimal means.
Here’s another area that I didn’t think about at the time, but it blew me away when it started happening. And now it’s a huge part of what a lot of our members do. It’s the do-it-yourselfers out there or maybe validators is a better term. Those people that would not delegate the management of their portfolio, but yet they know they have questions about the holistic planning aspects. One couple was self-made millionaires, did quite well with their investment portfolio, but there were a number of other areas that they wanted to look at in their financial plan. And they budgeted to spend $2,000 a year with the advisor to be able to do this type of work. But they had come in two times to our wealth management practice and walked away after being quoted over $22,000 annual fee.
Because it was all or nothing. To be able to really kind of Stephen Covey approach to financial planning. What are the most urgent and critical issues now? All the while remembering that financial planning is a process, not a product. We’re not trying to do everything. We’re trying to do what is critical and urgent for this client right now or what will be immediately or shortly and go about it through time. Because financial planners relationship with a client is a long time relationship. Kind of a dentist or something like that, or an attorney, hopefully not.
Steve Wershing:
It sounds as though … having that hourly approach to it opens up new opportunities to work with folks and it also makes for great stories. And it sounds like that could really enhance referability because that’s what people will share that you can really parse it down, and it also sounds like it can help you like it did you get some nice press exposure, because you can position yourself that way and that makes you a nice somebody that a reporter would be interested in talking with and be a story. Well Sheryl, we’d love to keep talking, but we have to wrap it up for our listeners. I’d love to be able to help people get hold of you and learn more about the Garrett Planning Network and how they too could explore this as a business model for themselves. Where can they go to find out more about them?
Sheryl Garrett:
At garrettplanningnetwork.com would be the best place to begin. And from there under for advisors, there’s a number of details, lists, recordings, and we also offer and host a weekly call for interested parties. And this could be folks that might be interested in referring people that do not meet their minimum or their target market, and they want to refer them to a Garrett member. It could be someone who’s exploring, making a change or someone who has a real calling and they think this might be a good fit for them. Everybody is welcome to attend these calls.
Steve Wershing:
That’s great. Well, Sheryl, thank you again for spending some time with us.
Julie Littlechild:
Yeah, thank you.
Steve Wershing:
And congratulations again on your award. Much deserved and thanks for joining us on Becoming Referable.
Sheryl Garrett:
Thank you. It’s the best thing I could have done is to go hourly and to make that easy for people. Thank you.
Steve Wershing:
Thanks.
Julie Littlechild:
Hi, it’s Julie again. It was great to have you with us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It really does help. You can get all the links, show notes, and other tidbits from these episodes at becomingreferable.com you can also get our free report, Three Referral Myths That Limit Your Growth and connect with our blogs and other resources. Thanks so much for joining us.