Participants:
Steve Wershing
Julie Littlechild
Heather Ettinger
Julie Littlechild: Steve Wershing: Heather Ettinger: Julie Littlechild: Steve Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Heather Ettinger: Julie Littlechild: Steve Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Heather Ettinger: Julie Littlechild: Heather Ettinger: The second piece for us on fit is really watching how they engage with our team. And what I want to see is are they respectful? Are they professional? Are they forthcoming in information? If they aren’t, it’s going to be really hard for us to add value. And obviously we do this with complete confidentiality even in the due diligence process. But we do need to know the good, the bad and the ugly in terms of everything that’s going on in the family, because we’re going to be much better advisors if we do that, and they’re going to get so much more from our team if indeed they do that. The second on the fit that I probably should manage mentioned is I did talk in the beginning about men and women. We always use teams on each relationship. So the other thing I’m looking for in due diligence is what’s the dynamic? If it’s a couple, I want to see what’s the importance of not just skill set on my team, but chemistry. And so we want to make sure we have a good chemistry with a client that everybody at the table feels safe and understood. Steve Wershing: Heather Ettinger: And so in the study, if anybody’s looking for niches, there’s some good takeaways for what are some of the key things you need to be thinking about if you’re serving some of these women. The second huge takeaway from the first study was that 96% of women said the most important thing you need to do as an advisor is show that you understand what’s unique about me and my family. So we’re going to have to really do a deep dive. So it starts with the niche, but then it really starts with us understanding what are their pain points? How can we be empathetic to what they’re going through? So right now a good example would be breadwinner women, which by the way was the second study we wrote in 2015. What that showed was that not only is the industry not meeting expectations of these women, but their companies aren’t either. And actually there are a lot of family dynamics particularly with the generation ahead of us that influence their comfort with managing the finances and all. So it’s really important to understand what are the pain points and what is unique about that particular woman and her family as well? Steve Wershing: Heather Ettinger: And I’ll talk to this a little bit about the Luma proven process, but as we develop their annual plan, one of the things you’ll see with breadwinner women and also with the entrepreneurial women is they say, “I want my schedule of meetings for the whole year scheduled with my assistant, what are going to be the topics and on my calendar now.” And they typically that… they’re talking in January. So whereas that may be a little too intimidating to a widow who’s like, “I’m not really sure where I’m going to be in July. I don’t really want to have that kind of push.” And then the other thing I would say is different advisors are going to resonate with different niches. I resonate obviously with some of the business owners because I’m running a business, and particularly during COVID, that’s probably been where my biggest focus has been. There are others who have the patience a mile long to deal with widows and when they’re going through that grieving process. And one of the things that we do is we really sit with them typically in their living room, little hard to do right now, but we also go through the mail. We do all sorts of things that are just really giving them a very personalized hands-on connected experience that shows the empathy. We’re recognizing if it’s been a male spouse, what was his date of death? What’s his birthday? Making sure we’re reaching out on those days to let her know that we’re thinking about her. So it’s a very different type of advisor that’s going to have that kind of empathy and patience to do those types of things versus the hard charger entrepreneur or breadwinner woman. Julie Littlechild: Steve Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Heather Ettinger: And then I think there are a couple other things that we do that I think is really important and helps uncover some things, not just for us, but also for her and the family. So one of those would be, we really do a pretty deep dive on what’s your money journey been? What are the money messages you’ve received? How has that impacted your relationship with women? We do an exercise, every single financial literacy program that we start with these women around that. And so that is a connector amongst groups. And in those programs, we don’t necessarily have to have women all of the same background. Actually, it’s a richer dialogue if they aren’t. And then I think it’s really understanding their why, their assessment of where they are today and how that relates to money and their life, that then gets us into that richer dialogue. So I got into this because back in the late ’80s, I was working with some women’s foundations and I quickly understood that if we educate and empower women around their money, they’re the agents of social change. But you have to create a safe environment for them to learn. And I think that’s really what we try to do with our trademark solutions for women program. We do connected exercises right up front, and as I said, they don’t all have to be from all breadwinners or all business owners, we are happy to connect women from different backgrounds and the sharing can be very rich if you do that, keep it small and keep it safe. Julie Littlechild: Heather Ettinger: It’ll come out, but it’s coming out in a more constructive and richer discussion. And that’s the what to them. It’s what’s really behind what’s driving the family’s plan and priorities? And then the how happens to be our financial capital and by the way, human capital. So how is the family organizing around that? And I think that’s really critical because we’ve got to change the way we talk about money. Most of the women come in saying, “I’m not sure if I have enough money to work with you.” That’s because they think the money is what we’re looking for. I would argue the conversation’s got to change. What we’re looking for is designing a life plan where the how is connected to their financial capital and human capital, but really much more emphasis on their why and their what. Steve Wershing: Heather Ettinger: As a visionary leader, I have to say biggest challenge over the past couple of months has been we had to take our annual plan and of course change it. But right now it’s really trying to focus on what are the signals and what’s the noise? What can we focus on that’s really going to help us determine some best practices right now and some things that can be successful? And we are going to revisit those on a much more frequent level than we normally would. So we might try something for a couple of weeks. Is it working? If it’s working, let’s keep doing it, let’s build it. But if it’s not working, let’s pivot. And I think families are doing the same thing as they look at whether somebody is looking for a job, out of a job, childcare, so many of these different challenges that are facing the family. Julie Littlechild: Heather Ettinger: So when they can really look at this other wheel with the six different areas of life, they’re like, “Oh, you know what I forgot to tell you? I am now doing this mindfulness retreat, and I really want to build that into my plan. I didn’t think about it until I saw spirituality on here.” And then Julie to your point, we then have what we call the developmental journey and it’s their developmental journey. So we’re going to slot in there three different things. One is going to be what are the key deliverables we’re going to have, and key meeting times to get those deliverables done? Of course, but the two other things are going to be what financial literacy programs do we have coming up? And it can be wellness programs, as well as we’re doing… Ironically, we picked wellness as our theme this year, but we’re doing a lot around physical and mental wellness as well as financial wellness. So what are those programs that are most relevant to them? And that’s where the niches come in. And then the third is any other major things that are going on for the family. So maybe it’s a kid’s graduation, maybe it’s the first anniversary of a lost spouse. Whatever it may be, we want to make sure we have those on our calendar, that we’re aware of them, that they know we’re aware of it and we’re reaching out. So they get this game plan for the year that includes as we say, learn, connect, and celebrate. So it may also have some other connection activities that we have with similar, with like-minded and like-situation women to them as well. Julie Littlechild: Heather Ettinger: So these are really different resources, but if she’s running the life of the family, she doesn’t have time to go interview, figure this all out. We can help connect her to that quickly. We also connect like-minded and like-situation women. So a really easy example would be what we call luminary leaders, which is our business owners. And what we do there is we create sessions for them without, by the way CPAs, bankers, any other centers of influence, it’s all business owners, where they can actually let their hair down and talk about the challenges of managing their business with other like-situation women. And so we usually highlight one woman, but then that generates a lot of conversation. We also do this, we just did it last week for a bunch of executive women across the country who thanks to us now realizing we can do more virtually with clients that aren’t in Cleveland, we connected some really senior female leaders across the country to have a dialogue on certain issues and areas of interest, and quite frankly also have some fun. So we really do a lot of connection through that. And then the celebrate, that could be a new job, that could be getting an award that could be… But we try to really tailor that specifically to that particular person in the family. And let me give you an example of a family where she’s the lead breadwinner. Husband is home raising the three kids. We know them well enough to say, “We’re not sending flowers.” Because she really could care less about that. Instead we called him up and said, “How about we either get you a gift certificate for a restaurant and we help with some babysitting, so you guys can have a date night? We really started trying to tailor a way for them to celebrate that big promotion she got in a way that was specific to that family. So I think that’s another thing that we try to build into this. Julie Littlechild: Heather Ettinger: Julie Littlechild: Heather Ettinger: And I think here’s an interesting nuance. What has also become a target market is we actually call it men who have a healthy relationship and respect for women is the men who know they are going to predecease, very good chance, they will predecease their wife, and they want her to develop a relationship and a healthy relationship with an advisor now. So it’s actually, I know it sounds strange, but it is a target market for us, where we have these men who are like, “I really want…” By the way, it’s not only just their spouse, they probably have adult daughters or younger daughters that they are raising to have a voice. And the beauty of it is when we do this work, we end up getting referred up a generation across a generation and down a generation. So when you to talk about referrals, that’s the beauty of the work that we do, because through this inclusivity, it makes people feel really confident. The quote I got this week was, “We feel like you guys are in it with us, as opposed to working for us.” That’s a big difference. Does that help answer the question, Julie? Julie Littlechild: Steve Wershing: Julie Littlechild: Steve Wershing: I really appreciate the depth of how you approach this as opposed to just being overly simplistic about a target market or a niche. But let’s talk about how advisors outside of Luma might use some of these concepts. Not all advisory firms have the scope of Luma. What are some of the ideas that you could share that might help advisors with smaller businesses use some of these ideas and differentiate themselves, you know, cut through some of that noise? Heather Ettinger: I used to think I was pretty good at advising people on dealing with elders until my dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. And then I realized managing through that, I had no idea what I was talking about. It was all speak and not much really clear understanding. So what have you gone through in life or with family or friends that really helps you experience what clients might be going through? And so I think really picking the type of relationship that you think is going to work with you and you can really bring value to. I think also, have a plan, and put the stake in the ground. And a lot of people are really nervous to do this. But I would say the one thing I learned pretty quickly was when we moved to really identifying by the way, the psychographic, as well as the niches, we doubled our growth rate. So it’s going to resonate with people more if you’re clear about who are great clients for you to work with, no matter if you’re a $5 billion firm or you’re a $50 million firm. People want to know that they’re understood and they’re cared for, and that they have a voice. And so I think that’s really, really important in terms of the target. And then the last piece is what problem are you solving for them or problems or challenges? So if you think about Luma for example, part of the reason we’ve developed all these strategic partnerships with other resources is we’re solving the problem that A, she’s trying to manage all this stuff in the family and has no time. Time is our most precious commodity. And B, she doesn’t have time for somebody to call her and go, “Here are three resources you should call and go interview them.” She’s like, “Hey, Heather, based on what you know about me, who’s the one person I should call that’s going to be able to help me?” And so I think that’s really important is what are you trying to solve for that niche? If it’s elder care, if you’re working with widows, what are you doing that’s unique to working with that group? If you’re working with divorcees, exact same thing. So I think that’s really important. With our business owners, we haven’t been shy about bringing in EOS implementers as speakers, because our business owners need it. And so I think it’s really understanding, what do you bring into the table to help that particular niche? Julie Littlechild: Heather Ettinger: Julie Littlechild: Heather Ettinger: So it’s really a lot easier for them to clearly differentiate. Other clients will say, and I know this to be true, “Help me. I’m grateful. You help my child, and particularly adult children, particularly right now, I’m indebted to you forever. You have no idea what that meant that you actually were willing to get on the phone and help my kid through whatever it is that they may be going through right now.” So I think that’s… give the clients a chance to refer you. They want to, and if you really differentiate the experience, they’re going to be able to articulate it to others, and that’s how you’re going to become more referable. Julie Littlechild: Heather Ettinger: Julie Littlechild: Steve Wershing: Heather Ettinger: Steve Wershing:
Welcome to Becoming Referable, the podcast that helps you become the kind of advisor people can’t help talking about. I’m Julie Littlechild, and today, Steve and I have a great conversation with Heather Ettinger. Now, Heather is the CEO of Luma Wealth, a firm that is absolutely on a mission to not only understand, but to support women’s wealth needs. Heather, I think takes an incredibly thoughtful approach to focusing on women, so you’ll find her insights incredibly helpful no matter who you target, or who you want to target in your business. And she clears up some myths around whether women can actually be a niche. Heather describes how Luma delivers a client experience that reflects a really deep understanding of their target market. She talks about how she and her team are changing the conversation around money and how all of this can be executed well and consistently. Heather’s a real visionary when it comes to building a business, and I know that you’ll find this discussion inspiring. And with that, let’s get straight to the conversation with Heather. Heather, welcome to the Becoming Referable podcast.
Yeah, welcome Heather.
Well, thank you so much Julie and Steve. I’m a fan of the work that both of you do. And Julie, as you know, for years I kept telling all my advisors, “If you go to no other session, go to Julie’s.” So huge admirers. Thank you for the work that you guys do. It’s really important.
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you.
I know we’ve, we wanted to talk to you for a long time, so I’m excited. And I have so many questions, as I know Steve does as well, but can you just start by giving us a bit of an introduction to the work that you’re doing at Luma?
Sure. So what really I think sets Luma apart is that we are a community of male and female advisors serving women and their families, no matter what they may look like. So it might be a pink professional aunt, no kids, it might be a traditional marriage, it may be a same-sex partnership, it may be a widow, divorcee, whatever. But whatever that family looks like, we want to be very inclusive. And we serve specific niches and target markets, and then we really are trying to help them manage the life of the family. We all know, and we’re certainly seeing it with COVID, that the bulk of managing the family life falls on women. So we need to not only look at their financial resources in the light of what they need longer term, but also in light of what they may need day-to-day in managing the life of the family.
So pink, did not know that was a thing. Thank you.
Yeah, that’s new.
Thank you for that first of all. I know your focus is on women and their families, but I also know that you’ve identified certain subgroups or segments within that. Can you talk a little bit about how you then subdivide and focus on women?
Sure. I think first of all, we certainly have a target demographic and psychographic, and I hope for your listeners they pay attention to this because it is really important that we say what type of clients do we work best with? And for us, those are often clients who are in or planning for a transition. They definitely value advice over product, they delegate, but want to be engaged, and they’re really looking for clarity, a sense of philanthropy, gratitude, interested in family stewardship, those types of things. And truthfully they want a relationship. So it’s not a transactional relationship only, it’s really a continuing education. And so in that, currently we focus on widows, divorcees, women of inherited wealth, breadwinner women, where she is either equal to, or the lead breadwinner in the family, and then women entrepreneurs and business owners. And those are the five biggest target markets that we serve currently.
And we all have different language for this. What you just described as target markets, what you initially described was more of the psychographic factors. Are they more factors to assess good fit? And I’m interested in how you actually assess fit on some of those psychographic characteristics.
Julie, it’s a great question. So yes, to answer the first question, it is absolutely about fit. And then the way we assess it is we do a tremendous amount of due diligence upfront, perhaps it’s because I’ve been in this business too long, but I think often in the industry, we’re quick to want to capture assets or capture a relationship. And the fact of the matter is if you run a business, most of us know that if it’s truly wealth management and financial planning, you’re probably losing money the first couple of years as you really get up to speed with that client. So it better be a client that you’re going to have for a period of time.
So Heather, you’ve sort of touched on this, but there’s confusion, maybe even controversy about the idea of women as a niche. I’ve been involved in those conversations over time, and I’d like to find out your perspective on that. You talk about focusing on women and you also then sort of described a few different target markets within that group. Can you tell us a little bit about what is different about the way you approach things? What’s different based on the research that you’ve done on working with women and help us understand how you define that as more of a niche experience?
Absolutely. So love the question, it’s one of my favorites and I think where we see most firms make a mistake is they start a women’s initiative. An initiative to me makes it sound like it’s a fleeting moment, and we really approach this very differently. First of all, women are not a niche. And so if you took my mother who’s 87 and me who’s in my 50s and my two adult daughters who are in their 20s, and you take the average of all of us, the one thing I can tell you unequivocally is it’s none of us. And that’s what the research showed. So I co-authored… The first study was produced in 2011 and it’s called Women of Wealth: Why Does The Financial Services Industry Still Not Hear Them? And we interviewed over 500 women and showed statistically that you cannot treat a widow the same as you treat a breadwinner woman, the same as you treat a divorcee, et cetera.
So Heather, if I could dig into that a little bit, because it’s really interesting. You make a really powerful point about women are not a niche and you’ve named a few different profiles of different possible clients in there, each of which has separate and unique needs. And so why not just talk about those different profiles and those different kinds of markets, what ties them together being women?
So if I understand the question right, if you’re asking why doesn’t Luma just come out and say, “We serve these specific niches.” I think it’s because there’s going to be an evolution as we bring in additional advisors, as we learn more through the client work that we do, we create an experience that really resonates with those particular niches. So let me give a couple examples for breadwinner women where she is managing perhaps both the lead career or at least a dual career in the family, as well as typically the life of the family, which is in the second study how much that still falls disproportionally on her. If you were to send her a questionnaire and say, “Fill this out.” You’re probably going to be sitting here five years from now waiting for that questionnaire to come back. It’s just not going to happen.
I’ve always appreciated how thoughtful you’ve been about trying to figure this out, because I’ve struggled with this notion, like you said, of women as a niche. And even Steve with what you’ve mentioned, why isn’t it just business owners? But there are differences, right? That’s the reality-
Well, yeah. And I’m sorry, Julie, but I want to jump in because I understand that women business owners, women breadwinners, that those are really interesting and unique niches that that would be different than their male counterparts. My last question was more like, what ties them together as women? Because they get to set the differences but I don’t get…What I’m trying to figure out is why not just do a service for women breadwinners and women entrepreneurs and widows? What is it that ties them together? But I don’t want to get us too far off this. I want Julie to let you pursue that question, but I also want it to be clear about what I was asking about.
No, no, no. And I think it’s a great question and that’s why I feel like the work that Heather’s doing is so important. And I think that you only need to go to lunch with a group of six women to figure out what the differences are.
Yeah. So maybe Steve if we focus a little on the statistics, the fact of the matter is most women actually want an advisor, but we know that it’s less than 25% that are actually working consistently with an advisor, and that 80% leave the meeting feeling misunderstood. And we also know that the way our industry goes about bringing on clients is typically on an AUM fee which immediately makes it about the money, right? And so most women, I would tell you actually prefer a retainer or really want to understand how is the advice side of the relationship going to work before they even start talking about the investment side?
Well, I’d love to… There’s a couple of things that you just talked about that I’d love to dig in on. And I think that you’re touching in various ways on how the whole conversation about money and maybe life, is changing. And can you describe what you mean when you talk about changing the conversation about money?
Yes. Thank you, Julie. And I think this is something that’s really important to emphasize. So what we’re trying to do at Luma is focus number one on the why. So what’s important to that family, what’s their priorities? And quite frankly, I think the last couple months have really helped families perhaps start to have that dialogue in a more meaningful way. The industry treats the what as if it were the money, but the what for her and her family is really about what’s important in my life in six different areas? And that would include relationships, that would include job or purpose, that includes community, that includes spirituality and health and what I call play. And so we go through an exercise that looks at those areas, and typically they’re much more excited to talk about priorities in one, two, three of those, as they are to say, “Well, gee, I want to talk about education funding.”
And Heather, if I can, I’d love to hear more about something you said before we started recording. You were saying that the whole COVID pandemic may be sort of a tipping point when we really do get an opportunity to change that conversation. I’d love to hear more about your perspective on that.
Well, again, I think this has been an opportunity for families to come together and talk about the family budget, what are the priorities, why are the priorities what they are? Family giving, perhaps a pivot on family giving. I know our family has changed where we’ve been giving and really focused on some different things over the past number of months. And I think as leaders, really the message needs to be, whether it’s leaders of our firms or leaders of our family, is, “We have a plan. You’re going to be okay. We’re going to be okay.” And laying that out as to what it looks like. We’ve got to paint the picture, and maybe we can only paint the picture for the next two weeks or the next month, but where are we, what are going to be the key decision points coming up, and therefore what are we trying to do over time?
And when you talk about these conversations related to COVID or not even related, just almost brought to the forefront sometimes by COVID, conceptually it makes perfect sense. These are the six areas, this is what we care about. But how have you thought about bringing this to life for advisors within the firm? Is it a process? Is it a structure? I mean, how do you go about that?
Yes. By the way, we’re big EOS adopters in our firm and a huge fan of that. So it’s truthfully called the Luma Proven Process, and we talked a little bit about the assessment of where they are today. That includes their money journey. Of course it’s going to include hopes, dreams, aspirations, potential triggers, and barriers. So are there elder care issues that we need to be aware of? Things like that. And what keeps them up at night. And then we go through these six areas and ask them to prioritize. Now, this is a real pivoting point because usually in our industry, this is where we show them a wheel of financial planning, estate planning, charitable gift planning, et cetera. That’s what we do. They don’t want to see that. That just like makes them glaze over and go, “Oh, good God. Now what?”
So the learn, connect and celebrate, and you mentioned a couple of things, I think, the way you acknowledge the passing of a spouse with widows, for example. I mean, I assume that’s a form of celebration in a way, like celebration of the person’s life and the relationship. I may be wrong on that, but correct me. But can you give us some specific examples of the learning and the connection and the celebration? What does that look like?
Absolutely. So we developed a trademark program called Solutions for Women a number of years ago, and we just keep adding to it. But what’s important there is we create connection with the women right on the front end, because most women come in with a lot of baggage. I should have, I would have, I could have, and we need to diffuse that on the front end so that they can learn. These programs are everything from basic financial planning to, as I said, could be brain health, could be around negotiating skills. And so that’s the learn. The second is connect, and we connect women with the traditional resources. So CPAs, estate planners, et cetera. But we’re also going to connect them with nontraditional resources. So for me, I needed to hire a senior care manager to help manage the life of my parents at various points. Maybe I need a kid tested for learning differences, et cetera.
Every time you talk about your business, I want to be part of these things, which is good.
If you want you can do that, Julie.
Yeah, that’s true. Steve, I don’t think this is what you were asking, but I do kind of want to go back to this whole idea of working with women. And I know that you work with families, right? I mean with great women or often great men. So how do you think about this idea of targeting women and supporting women, but ultimately of course making that just as appealing for the men in the families?
That is a fabulous question. So I think it really starts and it’s very relevant to of course where we are today. It’s really understanding the family dynamic, and really quite frankly bringing some of the history that I’ve had in terms of how people have treated me over the years just because I’m a woman. Assuming, if I go to an advisor conference that my husband is the advisor as opposed to me, particularly the ones that are CEO conferences. So we really do a lot of work around making sure everybody at the table is included in the conversation. So, if he has the trailing career, we want to make sure, or if he’s a stay-at-home dad, we want to make sure he feels valued and understood. And that’s what comes back to us all the time is, “I wasn’t quite sure in the beginning. Oh my gosh, as much as I love you, my spouse loves you. My kids love you.” Whoever is at the table is… and that’s really important.
It does. Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah, it does. And what a compliment it is, right?
What I love about all the stuff you’re talking about, Heather is we try to get away from niche being too much of a sort of flat concept. That it’s either a business owner or a doctor or a parent or something like that. And as you speak, I’m envisioning every client is this big Venn diagram, and there’s a part of it that’s an entrepreneur and there’s a part of it that’s a woman, and there’s a part of it that’s a mother. And every group that you’re working with has all of those different things coming in and you’re respecting all those different areas so that it’s a much more, you said the word before, nuanced way of approaching it.
Steve, I think that’s a great question, and it actually takes me back to the beginning of my career when I returned to Cleveland. I had worked in Boston and had some success, decided to come back and join a business where I had family members in it. And one of the things I quickly had to think about is, “Well, what am I going to do differently?” Like, why would somebody refer to me Heather, over my dad, Tom, or my brothers, et cetera? And so I think this is where advisors really need to spend some time and say, “What are the clients I really connect with, I really feel passionate about, I really know I can help, we have similar experiences? And that may change over time. And I’ll give you a specific example.
Well, this might sound like an obvious question because all of that sounds like so powerful, but what do you think the impact of all of this is on growth and referrals?
I apologize. All of this, you mean in terms of how we grow?
Well, I’m thinking about what you’re delivering to your clients, the scope of the experience, virtually everything that you’ve walked us through. How do you think that also helps you grow as well as delivering an extraordinary experience to your clients?
Great question, Julie. I think what it does most often is… And I had this conversation actually yesterday with somebody who also consults to our business, who said to me, “Our experience with you has been completely different than our four previous advisors.” And I said, “Tell me how.” And she could easily articulate it. “It’s your team approach. We both have people we connect with on the team. I’m not a huge client, but you never make me feel that way. You make me feel really important. Yeah, we knew we had to do a refinance, but what was different is your team came to us with a very proactive strategy that was focused on our particular situation, not call this banker they’ll [inaudible 00:40:18] for you.”
Yeah, absolutely. I knew I could keep you on for days if you gave me half the chance, but I know we’ve gone over. And I just want to make sure listeners know how they can learn more about the work that you’re doing. Where’s the best place for them to go for that?
The best place for listeners to go to learn more about Luma is www.lumawealth.com, and be sure to look at some of the resources, because the studies that I’ve co-wrote with friends at Family Wealth Advisors Council are on there. A lot of different resources to help manage life. We want to help women, whether they’re clients of ours or not, women in their families. So we’d love for them to go visit and see what resources might be helpful.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you Heather.
Thank you. It’s been just a delight and obviously a passionate topic for me.
Hey folks, Steve, again, thanks for joining us on Becoming Referable. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It really helps. You can get all the links, show notes and other tidbits from these episodes at becomingreferable.com. You can also get our free report, three referral myths that limit your growth and connect with our blogs and other resources. So until next time, so long.